CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY OF INDIA - VOLUME VII


Tuesday, the 4th January 1949

The constituent Assembly of India met in the Constitution Hall, New Delhi, at Ten of the Clock, Mr. Vice-President (Dr. H. C. Mookherjee) in the Chair.

Mr. Vice-President (Dr. H. C. Mookherjee): Before we begin the business of the Houses, I have to inform honourable Members that yesterday information was received that members of the R.S.S. would somehow secure entrance into the lobbies and galleries in order to create disturbance. Fortunately, this was prevented. May I request honourable Members to issue visitors' cards for those only who are personally known to them in order that we may proceed with our business without any interruption?

We shall now take up discussion of article 67. The first amendment on the list is amendment No. 1411. this is disallowed as being verbal.

Then we have amendments Nos. 1412, 1413 first part,1414 first part and 1415 first part. These are identical.Amendments 1415 standing in the name of Kazi Syed Karimuddin is allowed to be moved.

Kazi Syed Karimuddin (C. P. & Berar: Muslim): Mr. Vice-President, Sir, I move:

"That in sub-clause (a) of clause (5) of article 67,the following words be deleted:--

`Subject to the provisions of articles 292 and 293 of this Constitution;

and the following words be added at the end:--

`in accordance with the system of proportional representation with multi-member constituencies by means of cumulative vote'."

Sir, the present electoral system, of single member constituency according to me, is very defective. The one pervading evil of democracy is the tyranny of the majority that succeeds in carrying elections. To break off that pointis to arrest danger. The common system of representation perpetuates the danger and the only remedy is proportional representation. That system is also profoundly democratic for it increases the influence of thousands of those who would have no voice in the Government and it brings men more near an equality by so contriving that no vote shall be wasted and that every voter shall contribute to bring into ParlI ament a member of his own choice and opinion. Sir,another objection to the present electoral system is that the system does not even guarantee the rule of majority. We have innumerable instances of this type in England and America. The Conservative majority of 1924 was unreal because it polled 48 per cent of votes and it was supposed to be the majority party in the country. Then in America,Presidents Hayes and Harrison became Presidents in 1876 and1888 when they secured votes less than the votes secured by their adversaries. In so far as this is concerned, the present electoral system is really perverse. This system may even deprive the minorities of their just share of representation as to render them impotent. An instance of this has happened in the Irish election. The most ardent defenders of the system would hardly deny the right of the minority to some representation and it is worthy if note that one of the reasons advanced by Gladstone was that such a system tended to secure representation for minorities. This is found to be wrong inIreland; yet as prophesied in the debates of 1885, the minorities in the South and West of Ireland have since that date been permanently disfranchised. In the eight ParlI aments of 1885 to 1911 they had been without representation. Therefore my submission is that the present system as it stands does not guarantee a majority rule as people commonly suppose and dose not guarantee are presentation to minorities, not necessarily religious,even the political minorities. Today we are faced with an electoral system in which there is no guarantee except the reservation of seats even on religious grounds must go. It has been accepted on all hands that communalism must be uprooted from the soil of this country. We have has had evil effects of it and the Dominion ParlI ament is already committed to this stand because a Resolution has been already passed that no communal

party may be allowed to function in the country. Therefore separatism, communalism and isolationism must disappear from the body politics of India but we cannot ignore the existing conditions in the country. We find that there is a movement for the establishment of a Hindu raj. We find that there is an R.S.S. organisation also in the country. In view of this we have to proceed cautiously and gradually, and therefore we have to find out a way that communalism must go and the minorities must be represented in the legislatures.

Now there are two methods before us. One is the reservation of seats as has been provided in the Constitution, i.e. under article 292. The other is proportional representation. There are very serious defects about the provision of reservation of seats because it is based on religious grounds. It defeats the very objects for which it is adopted because the chosen representatives of the community for which reservation is given cannot be secured. then as I has already said in the general discussions, that even a false convert for the purpose of election will defeat a choice representative and the minorities will be engaging lawyers who would argue the cases against their own clients; but it is wrong to say that it is communal because it is the majority that would elect the representatives of the minorities mainly and not the minority communities.

The system which I regard as the best is the system of proportional representation. It is not based on religious grounds and it applies to all minorities, political,religious or communal. There are three objections to this system, which are generally argued and debated. The first is that there would be very large constituencies and it would be very difficult to manage the voters. The second objectionis the instability of the Government and the third is the establishment of Coalition Governments. Now in regard to the first objection. I think it is not tenable at all. In a large constituency if the party system works, then there is no question of the candidate coming in contact with the voters. The party machinery would work successfully. It is wrong to suppose that there will be instability of Government because the majority is bound to secure majority in the House and the majority is bound to form a Government.Then about the Coalition Government, in my opinion, wherethere is heterogeneous population, it is very necessary that we should have Coalition Governments. It will not be a bad thing that various representatives elements should have to be consulted in forming a Ministry. The country is passing thorough transition and Communism is knocking at our door.It is very necessary that the opposition whether it is communal or it is a political will have to be accommodated. We are about to transfer the Government of this country from the middle classes to those whom I might describe as the wage-earning class. This is animmense change which is realised by very few people in the country. the Congressmen are of opinion that they are bound to sweep the polls and therefore they support the Draft Constitution which establishers a majority rule, making no effective provisions for the benefit of either communal or political minorities in the country. They are wrong and they would be found to be wrong. No. organization in the world has reconciled the conflicting claims of labour and capital,tenant and landlord and it is impossible to keep them underone banner. Look around us, communism is spreading with alarming speed and once it catches the imagination of the working classes, its potentiality is very grave. Suppose the working classes take a fancy for socialist dogmas or communist dogmas, they being in majority, are bound to capture power in absence of any provision to protect political or communal minorities. In order to provide against such contingencies the system of proportional representation is the only method. Secondly without any sacrifice of democratic principles, it can afford protection to communal minorities also. Without any spirit of

communalism representatives of political and communal minorities can be elected. In the absence of this, the country can be plunged into communism.

Shri L. Krishnawami Bharathi (Madras: General): Sir,may I request the honourable Member to read slowly?

Kazi Syed Karimuddin: I am not reading. I am only referring to my notes. You can come here and see it for yourself.

Mr. Vice-President: Mr. Karimuddin, I suggest you speak more slowly.

Kazi Syed Karimuddin: Sir, in the general election and according to the present electoral system if the pendulum swings in favour of communism, all schemes of development will be lost and if it swings in favour of communalism, thesecular nature of the State will be lost; and if the minorities are neglected, whether they are political, or communal, and crushed and kept out of ParlI amentary activities, it will be a good fodder for the communists and they will sit in their lap. Therefore, it is part of wisdom to perused the opposition to take of the ways of constitutionalism and the only way to do it is the introduction of the system of proportional representation. I prophesy that if this is not done, it will present regime. I want the Congress to live longer because they have given peace, tranquility and a secular State to all the communications in India but this cannot be guaranteed unlessthe system of proportional representation is introduced.

Now, Sir, the first part of my amendment says that there should be abolition of the provision of reservation of seats in case the proportional representation is granted;otherwise not. Sir, in fact when I spoke about the abolition of reservation of seats and adoption of proportional representation, there was an incorrect idea that I was pleading for the abolition of reservation of seats unconditionally. I had stated and I state even today that if proportional representation is introduces, there should be no provision regarding the reservation is introduced, there should be no provision regarding the reservation of seats.Once you accept that there are minorities and also that some recognition has to be given to them, then my submission is that the House should be pleased to introduce the system of proportional representation.

Mr. Vice-President: Then amendment No. 1412 which stands in the name of Mr. Mohd. Tahir. Do you want it to beput to vote Mr. Tahir?

Mr. Mohd. Tahir (Bihar: Muslim): No, I do not want to move it.

Mr. Vice-President: Well in that case the amendments to that amendment, that is No. 19 and 20, standing in the name of Pandit Thakur Dass Bhargava fall through. But do you want to move them, Mr. Bhargava? I find that they relate to not only amendment No. 1412, but to other amendments also.

Pandit Thakur Dass Bhargava (East Punjab: General):Sir, though I do not want to move those amendments, with your permission, I would like to make a statement about them.

Mr. Vice-President: You can do so in the course of the general discussion. I shall bear that in mind. So I score them out. Then we come to amendment No. 1413, standing in the name of Pandit Lakshmi Kanta Maitra.

Pandit Lakshmi Kanta Maitra (West Bengal: General): I am not moving it Sir.

(Amendment No. 1414, first part was not moved).

Mr. Vice-President: Then we come to the second part of No. 1414, second part of 1415 and No. 1421. These are of similar import and may, therefore, be considered together.Amendment No. 1415 may be moved. It stands in the name of Kazi Syed Karimuddin; I am referring to the second part of No. 1415.

Kazi Syed Karimuddin: Sir, I have moved both parts of No. 1415.

Mr. Vice-President: All right. I am sorry I did not follow. Then No. 1414 falls through, as Mr. Lari is absent.Then we come to amendment No. 1416 and amendment No. 1417,amendment No. 1416 stands is the name of Prof. K. T. Shah.

Prof K. T. Shah (Bihar: General): Mr. Vice-President ,Sir I beg to move:

"That in sub-clause (a) of clause (5) of article 67,for the words `not more than five hundred representatives of the people of the territories of

the States directly chosen by the voters' the words `such members as shall, in the aggregate, secure one representative for every 500,000 of the population in all the constituent parts of the Union,whether States or territories directly administered by the Centre. all members of the People's House shall be chosen by the votes of adult citizens. The votes shall be cast in a secret ballot and voting shall be on the basis of Proportional Representatives with single Transferable Vote`be substituted."

Sir, by this amendment, I seek to make, three changes.

The first is to avoid a maximum number of representatives being fixed by the constitution for the People's house of Representatives. It is, I think, not in accord with the correct principle of popular representationthat it must be the people's voice which must be the final authority in the governance of a country calling itself a democracy. Under such a principle the Constitution should not fix permanently the maximum number of representatives for the popular chamber.

We have observed the tendency, during the ; last three or four censuses, towards a steady increase of the population of our country at every decennium. The last census shoes as increase of as much as 25 per cent in ten years. if, now, you fix the absolute maximum number, it would happen that you might change the number of persons represented by each representatives in an undesirable direction. That is to say, the representatives character of each representatives would become lesser and lesser, as the would be representing larger and larger numbers.

I feel, Sir, that if you make representation of very large numbers of voters to be concentrated on a single member. so to say, you may not have a correct verdict of the people on a multiplicity of issues that are usually placed before the electorate at a general election.

A general election-and that is presumably contemplated here-is always an occasion when a number of issues come before the voters, in which the people, that is, the voters are likely to be confused, because of the varying, and often conflicting, pulls of the different issues on which they are asked to give each a single vote. This being the unavoidable case at each such election, I think it may be as well to fix no maximum number of representatives for the representation of the people. Instead we should allow the number to shape itself according to the varying population.

It is true that is your census is a decennial affair,it may not give you the correct guide for every election in the interval between two censuses assuming that elections come at least once in five years, if not more frequently,Even so, since we have agreed to take the last preceding census as the basis, and that census is now more than eight years old,--apart altogether form the originally doubtful character of that census taken during the war,--the next general election may itself be not correctly representing all people, especially if you fix a maximum number of representatives to start with. In other later general elections, the five-year interval would not make so great a variation. That variation may be about 5 per cent or 6 percent or 71/2 per cent. This only means that representatives would number so many more on that amount of change, it may not be impossible for a proper electoral machinery copewith.

Taking that to be the case, I would suggest that a limit is 500,000 population be fixed as being entitled to be represented. This would be much more likely to reflect the real opinion of the people, even on a number of issues, than if you fix the total number of representatives at 500 as is contemplated under this clause. The number would, no doubt,increase, If the population tends to increase. It is therefore, possible that the maximum for the coming two decades may reach the figure of, say 600, or even more. Even with that number, I do not think that, for a country of the size and population of the Union of India, it is to large a number of representatives.

Anybody interested primarily in

expediting things, and in governing the country according to a few people's will naturally not like large number of representatives. The larger the number the greater, of course, is the chance, of deliberation, and the longer the time taken in passing laws or resolutions. the scrutiny of government's executive actions would also be from a greater variety of angles by interpellations and the like. Those, therefore, in favour of expenditure public business may not quite like this suggestion.

Those, on the other hand, who think more of the people and their wishes, would not, and should not, find in this,in my opinion, a hindrance or handicap to good government.the possibility of varying or increasing number of representatives should not, by itself, be regarded as an objection. In fact, even in the clause as it stands, the very idea that you think it necessary to fix the maximum number of representatives indicates that, even in this scheme, there is a possibility of variation in number; and as such, my amendment is, by itself, not to be condemned.

My second point is in relation to the scheme of voting.There are, in later clauses, some other amendments which I have tabled, and which when they come up, I will discuss. I will, therefore, not take up the time of the house at this moment.

As regards the scheme of voting, I only insist that voting should be by secret ballot, by adult citizens; and that it should be by means of a scheme of Proportional Representatives under the device of the single transferrable vote. I do not propose to descant at length, upon the the theocratical grounds in favour of Proportional Representation or against it, as the previous speaker has placed a fairly exhaustive case before you. I would only like to add, lest I should be misunderstood, that the principle of Proportional Representation is not intended so much to perpetuate communal minorities, as to reflect the various shades of political opinion which after all, should Legislature, if you desire to be really a demarcate government. The French system for instance, strictly speaking, is not based on Proportional Representation; and yet, different shades of political opinion are reflected in the French Assembly. Even so French Governments in the third Republic had an average life, it is said, of perhaps not more than eleven months. On that count, however, the principle is not necessarily to be condemned, as the public opinion of all shades get a chance of expression and there is in it, if not greater stability,at least greater reflection of popular will than would be the case a system of absolute vote that is apparently contemplated here.

The possibility of securing varying shades of political opinion will give a chance not only for minorities to be duly reflected in the Legislature of the country but also for them to assert themselves, and to convert the, selves into a majority, which perhaps, those who might confuse Proportional Representation as synonymous with the possibility of communal representation would do well to consider. On the grounds, Sir, I commend this motion to the house.

Shri H. V. Kamath (C. P. & Berar: General): Mr. Vice-President, I move, Sir:

"That in sub-clause (a) of clause (5) of article 67,for the words `representatives people of the territories of the States directly chosen by the voters; the words `members directly elected by the voters in the States' be substituted."

The clause as it appears in the Draft Constitution reads thus:

"(5) (a) Subject to the provisions of articles 292 and 293 of this constitution, House of the People shall consist of not more than five hundred representatives of people of the territories of the States directly chosen by the voters."

If my amendment is accepted by the House, the clause will read thus:

"Subject to the provisions of articles 292 and 293 of this Constitution, the House of the People shall consist of not move than five hundred members directly elected by the voters in the States."

The House will see that my amendment makes for

brevity,clarity and precision and further, seeks to eliminate the convolutions of language which mar the construction of the clause as it stands at present. I do hope that Dr. Ambedkar and the House will not have any difficulty in or objection to accepting it. I will only say one word more. If my amendment is accepted by the House, certain consequential changes will follow in sub-clause as well as in the provison the words "representatives of the States" will have to be altered to `members' in conformity with the amendment which has been moved to sub clause (a) of clause(5) . I commend this amendment to the acceptance of the House.

Mr. Vice-President: Amendments Nos. 1418, 1419 and 1420 are of similar import. I allow Prof. Ranga to move amendment No. 1419.

(amendments Nos. 1418 to 1423 were not moved .)

Prof. K. T. Shah: Mr. Vice-President, I beg to move:

"That the following be added after the words `the States' in sub-clause(b) of clause (5) of article 67:--

`and Territories directly governed by the Centre'".

Sir, the existing clause provides only for those States which are mentioned in the Schedule attached. The Schedule does not mention considerable territories, with considerable population in them, which are directly administered by the Centre. Lest their claim to representation be overlooked altogether and they be denied representative institutions in themselves, and go without representation at the Centre also, I think it is but proper and necessary specifically to include them in this clause.

It has been alleged, and I have heard it said on veryhigh authority, that the people of some of theseterritories, of a given area now administered directly bythe Centre, are so backward, so lacking in education and thecountry so undeveloped, as not to deserve representativeinstitutions at all. The remark I am referring to was madeat the Jaipur sessions of the Congress with specialreference to Cutch.

I was, I confess, surprised to hear such a sweepingcondemnation being enunciated by such high authorities inrespect of a territory such as Cutch, which is beingdirectly administered by the Centre. Sir quite a goodproportion of the business enterprise and industrialactivity of the city of Bombay has come from the Cutchipeople settled there. It is true that those Cutch peoplehave more or less become permanent citizens of Bombay,though they retain their connection with the State of Cutchand may, under the changed conditions of today well makesubstantial contribution to the rapid advancement of thearea and its inhabitants today. But that is no reason tocalumniate the whole province or State as lacking ineducation, development, enterprise or understanding of theresources, or the possibilities of the State.

This, Sir, is, in my opinion, very unfair to a wholepeople who have made their contribution to the country'sgeneral awakening and advance. To deny the people there, onsuch grounds, representation either in the State itself, orin the Centre as part of the Union, is highly retrograde, tosay the least.

The possibility therefore, of other similar territoriesbeing also ignored and going unrepresented has become sovivid in my mind, that I have felt it necessary to tablethis amendment and specifically to include them in thisclause with the words that I have suggested being added. Icommend this to the house.

Mr. Vice-President: The first part of amendment No 1425and amendment No. 1426 standing in the name of Mr. Kamathare identical. I propose that amendment No. 1425 may bemoved, the first as well as the second part. Mr. Kamath, doyou want your amendment No. 1426 to be put to vote?

Shri H. V. Kamath: I see that Dr. Ambedkar has stolen amarch over me, and so I do not propose to move my amendment.

Mr. Vice-President: Dr. Ambedkar.

The Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar (Bombay: General): I am not moving it.

Mr. Vice-President: Then we come to amendment No. 1427standing in the name of prof. K. T. Shah.

Prof. K. T . Shah: Amendments Nos. 1428 and 1429 alsostand in my name. Can I move all these

together?

Mr. Vice-President: You can move them one after theother. After moving all the three amendments, you can makeone speech covering all of them.

Prof. K. T. Shah: Mr. vice-President, sir, I move:

"That in sub-clause (b) of clause (5) of article 67,the words `divided, grouped or' be deleted."

"That in sub-clause (b) of clause(5) of article 67,after the word`constituencies', the following be added :-

`so that each State being constituent pat of theUnion, or Territory governed directly by theCentre is a single constituency by itself ifits population is not less than a million; orgrouped with such adjoining States orTerritories as together have a population ofnot less than a million."

"That is sub-clause (b) of clause (5) of article 67,after the word `constituencies' a full-stop be added; theword `and following immediately be deleted; and the word`the' be printed with a capital `T'."

Sir, the purpose of these amendments is consequentialupon what I have already moved; that is to say, we shouldfor constituencies in such a manner that each constituencyhas at least the representative possibility of two seats.Not less than a million, population, therefore, is themillion, population therefore, is the limit which I wouldsuggest should be the unit in the device of ProportionalRepresentation by which representation is to be secured.

Proportional Representation, Sir, would not be feasibleor even possible for single member constituencies. At anyrate it will not yield the same results as are expected bythose who believe in the principle. It is but righttherefore, and proper that you should have multi-memberconstituencies; and the minimum must not be less than two.

It is on that basis, and this understanding of theprinciple we have already adopted in the Constitution ofthis very assembly , that I have suggested a unit of amillion population. I have also suggested, in a previousamendment, the minimum population requiring representationto be 500,000. These two together, I think, would provideevery constituency with not less than tow representatives.

Most of the states will be able, each by itself, toprovide such constituencies. There will, of course, be someStates which will be much larger; and as such the working ofProportional Representation would in them fit in verysuccessfully. All States as well as territories governedfrom the Centre would by this means receive their fullmeasure of representation. It would enrich therepresentative character of the Union Legislature; it wouldprovide expression for all shades of opinion, it would helpto place before the Union Legislature; it would provideexpression for all shades of opinion, it would help to placebefore the Union legislature all aspects of the problemsthat come before it for legislation or otherwise fordisposal.

As I have stated already, I think it is but right andproper that we should have constituencies arranged orgrouped in such a manner, formed in such units, as wouldsecure the fullest possible representation on a ProportionalRepresentation basis for every constituent part of the Unionwhich may also enable every shade of political opinion to berepresented. Sir, I commend this to the House.

(Amendment No. 1430 was not moved.)

Shri H. V. Kamath: May I make a submission , Mr. vice-President? I thought that Dr. Ambedkar was moving hisamendment No. 1425 and so I said that my amendment would notbe moved. It appears that Dr. Ambedkar is not moving hisamendment . His amendment consists of two parts and he hasnot separated the two. Therefore, will you kindly permit meto move my amendment No. 1426?

Mr. Vice-President: All right.

Shri H. V. Kamath: Mr. Vice-President, I move Sir:

"That in sub-clause (b) of clause (5) of article 67,the words `of India' be deleted."

Sub-clause (b) of clause (5) as it appears in the DraftConstitution reads as follows:--

"For the purpose of sub-clause (a), the States of Indiashall be divided, etc."

Now, obviously the words `of India' are redundant andsuperfluous, and in my judgment they should

be deletedbecause the States in the Draft Constitution always mean the States of India. Therefore, Sir, I move that the words `ofIndia' should be deleted in this sub-clause, and if this isaccepted, the sub-clause will read as follows:--

"For the purpose of sub-clause (a), the States shall bedivided, etc."

This is quite clear. There is no need for me toexpatiate upon this point. I commend this amendment to the House for its acceptance.

Prof. K. T. Shah: Mr. Vice-President, Sir, I move:

"That the proviso to sub-clause (b) of clause (5) ofarticle 67 be deleted."

This, is consequential, Sir, from the previousamendments that I have moved. In as much as I do not desirethat a maximum figure should be fixed for representatives in the House of the People, it follows that such maximum orproportion being fixed as between the two Chambers wouldalso be out of place. If my previous amendments areaccepted, then this would follow as a matter of course. I,therefore, do not think it necessary to take any furthertime of the House. I commend the amendment for theacceptance of the House.

Mr. Vice-President: Amendment No. 1432 is verbal and istherefore disallowed.

Amendment No. 1433 both alternatives and amendment No.1437 are of similar import. Amendment No. 1437 may be moved.It stands in the name of Prof. Shibban Lal Saksena.

(The amendments were not moved)

Mr. Naziruddin Ahmad (West Bengal: Muslim): Sir, withyour permission and the permission of the House I wish tomove amendment No. 1434 in a slightly altered form. Therewill be some verbal changes in accordance with a similaramendment which has been accepted by the House.

I beg to move:

"That in sub-clause (c) of clause (5) of article 67,for the words `last preceding census', the words `lastpreceding census of which the relevant figures have beenpublished' be substituted."

This is the form in which another similar amendment wasfound to be acceptable to the honourable Member, Dr.Ambedkar. This matter has already been discussed in the House and the principle has already been accepted in anothercontext, namely, that if we have to depend upon a census, itmust be a census of which the figures are available. Wecannot depend upon a census for which figures are not yetavailable. If we are to hold an election, almost immediatelyafter a census is held the figures will not be available. Ittakes about a year to make the figures available. We have todo a lot of things depending upon census figures before anelection. In these circumstances one has to depend upon theprevious census of which figures are available. This matterwas well discussed in the House and the principle wasaccepted and this amendment is practically consequentialupon the acceptance of that motion.

Shri. L. Krishnaswami Bharati: Sir, I beg to move:

"That with reference to amendment No. 1434 of the Listof Amendments, in sub-clause (5) of Article 67, for thewords `members to be elected at any time for', the wordsrepresentatives allotted to' be substituted."

Clause (c) reads as follows:

"The ratio between the number of Members to be electedat any time for each territorial constituency and thepopulation of that constituency as ascertained at the lastpreceding census shall, so far as practicable, be the samethroughout India."

As per clause (b), there shall not be less than onerepresentative for every 750,000 of the population and notmore than one representative for every 500,000 of thepopulation. That latitude being given, it is just possiblethat they may not be uniformity of representation throughout India. The object of this clause is to secure a uniformscale of representation throughout India, whatever it maybe, and in order to secure this uniformity this clause isintroduced. But the wording "members to be elected at anytime for each territorial constituency" does not being outthe sense fully and hence my amendment that for the words"members to be elected at any time for", the words"representatives allotted to" be substituted. If myamendment is accepted the clause would read:

"The ratio between the number of representativesallotted to each territorial constituency and the populationof that constituency as ascertained at the last precedingcensus shall, so far as practicable, be the same throughoutIndia."

It is in order to bring out the sense more clearly that this amendment is moved.

(Amendment Nos. 1435 and 1436 were not moved)

Mr. Vice President: No. 1438 is disallowed as beingformal.

(Amendments Nos. 1439, 1440, 1441 and 1442 were not moved.)

Amendment No. 1443 is disallowed as being verbal.

(Amendments Nos. 1444 and 1445 were not moved.)

Mr. Naziruddin Ahmad: Sir, I beg to move:

"That clause (7) of Article 67 be omitted."

This clause deals with territories other than States.The objection to this clause is that it gives the right toParlI ament to determine the representation of areas otherthan the States. With regard to these territories, I submit,as I submitted in connection with another similar amendment,that if any area is governed by any authority, thatauthority should decide its representation. That principleshould be fixed in the Constitution. It should be left to anappropriate authority in the area to whom representation isgiven. There would be some authority functioning in thoseareas and it is for that authority to fix their ownrepresentation and not for ParlI ament. It may be areferendum or the like. In fact, it deprives certain areasof the right of self-determination.

Mr. Vice-President: Amendment No. Prof. K. T. Shah.

Prof. K. T. Shah: Mr. Vice-President, Sir, I beg tomove:

"That in clause (7) of article 67, for the word `may'the word `shall', for the word `territories' the words `theterritories' and for the words `other than States' the words`directly governed by the Centre on the same basis as in thecase of States which are constituent parts of the Union' besubstituted respectively."

The amended clause would read:--

"ParlI ament shall, by law, provide for therepresentation, in the House of the People, of theTerritories directly governed by the Centre on the samebasis as in the case of States which are constituent partsof the Union."

That would put all those territories on a par asbetween themselves.

I have already mentioned, Sir, that there areconsiderable chunks governed directly by the Centre; andperhaps there may be more hereafter, if new territoriesdesire to form part of the Union. And if even for a whilethese are to be directly governed by the Centre, then it isbut right and fair that they should be also receiving somerepresentation.

I would, therefore, make it compulsory by the Constitution that they too be provided with adequaterepresentation. Their representation should be on the samebasis as that for other States already forming part of theUnion, i.e., one representative for every 500,000population. There should be no talk about any territorybeing more developed, and therefore better fitted to berepresented, while others are called less developed andbackward and therefore not fitted to be properly representedeither in their own land or in the Union as part of theUnion. This kind of talk might suit the alien power whichruled in the land up till 18 months ago; and foe that powerthe entire country was deemed for a long time to be unfitfor representative institutions. Had those ideas prevailed,we should not be shaping this Constitution for a free-Indiatoday. It is of the essence of such institutions and of thetask of working them, that people learn to use them by usingthem. No amount of teaching their use will make people learnto use them as the actual responsibility of using them.Accordingly, I feel that this flows directly from theprevious amendments which I have moved and should, as such,be accepted.

Sir, I commend it to the House.

Mr. Vice-President: Then we come to amendments Nos.1448 and 1449 which are disallowed as they are merelyverbal.

Amendment No. 1450 standing in the name of PanditLakshmi Kanta Maitra may be moved.

Pandit Lakshmi Kanta Maitra: Mr. Vice-President, Sir, Ibeg to

move:

"That in clause (8) of article 67, after the word`readjusted' the words `on the basis of population' beadded."

Clause (8) of article 67 provides that upon thecompletion of each census the representation of the severalStates in the Council of States and of the severalterritorial constituencies in the House of the People shall,subject to the provisions of article 289 of thisConstitution, be readjusted by such authority in such amanner, with effect from such date, as ParlI ament by law maydetermine. My amendment is that this readjustment should bemade on the basis of population. The amendment is self-explanatory and I need not labour the point. I commend theamendment for the acceptance of the House.

Mr. Vice-President: There is an amendment to thisamendment, No. 43 of List II, standing in the name of Mr. L.K. Bharathi.

Shri L. Krishnaswami Bharathi: I am moving it, Sir, Ibeg to Move:

"That with reference to amendment No. 1450 of the Listof Amendments, after clause (8) of article 67, the followingnew proviso be inserted:--

`Provided that such readjustment shall not affectrepresentation to the House of the People until thedissolution of the ten existing House'."

Sir, sub-clause (8) of article 67 reads as follows:

"Upon the completion of each census the representationof the several State in the Council of the States and of theseveral territorial constituencies in the House of thePeople shall, subject to the provisions of article 289 ofthis Constitution, be readjusted by such authority, in suchmanner and with effect from such date as ParlI ament may, bylaw, determine."

The object of this sub-clause is, that after theelections to the Legislature--either the Council of Statesor the House of the People, as the case may be--census mayhappen to be taken and new figures may be available; and we have of course to adjust the number of seats in accordancewith the census figures available then. But it may not bequite possible to provide representation in accordance with the figures available thereafter, but it has got to be doneonly at the subsequent elections. So, in order to obviatethis difficulty, whenever there is some census taken andfigure available, in terms of which we have got to adjust,it has to be adjusted only later on at the subsequentelection and should not have anything to do with theexisting Council of State or the House of the People. Asimilar provision is found in article 149, sub-clause (4).It is an omission here and I have sought to bring it here sothat it may be in line with the scheme as found in article149. I hope this amendment will be accepted by the House.

Mr. Vice-President: Amendment No. 1451 standing in thename of Shri Nandlal comes next. The honourable Member isnot in the House.

Amendment No. 1452 standing in the name of Mr. MahboobAli Baig may be moved.

Mr. Mahboob Ali Baig Sahib (Madras: Muslim): Mr. Vice-President, Sir, I beg to move;

"That article 67, the following new clause (10) beadded:--

`(10) The election to the House of the People shall bein accordance with the system of proportional representationby means of a single transferable vote'."

Sir, I am only proposing the extension of the principlewhich we accepted yesterday in the matter of election to theCouncil of States. I am very much gratified to find, Sir,that yesterday the House recognised the principle underlyingthis method of election and I need not repeat all thearguments that I adduced yesterday in support of this systemand to establish the fact that this system of election ismore democratic and more scientific. But by the speeches ofsome honourable Members of this House, especially myhonourable Friend. Pandit Kunzru, an impression was createdon this House that in that particular case, namely, in thecase of the Council of States, the electorate therefor arethe Members of the legislature, who were elected on a jointelectorate and not on communal electorate. Therefore, therewas no danger, if this system is adopted for the election ofCouncil of States and of any council, of any communal

partycoming in. That was the reason, he said, he was supportingit. Thereby meant, if I may be permitted to sayinferentially, that if the method of election would enablecommunal parties to be returned to the legislature, he wouldnot support it. My submission is that there is no scope forany communal body as such being returned by this method, andif it could be returned, it would be returned in the sameway as any body holding different views from the majorityparty could be returned. If there is no objection to asection of people holding views different from the majoritythey could get into the legislatures by this method. I donot see any reason why any communal body should have theright to be returned. The reason why Pandit Kunzru supportedthis method for the Council of States, he said, was thatpeople holding different views must be enabled to bereturned, although they may be holding the view which wasnot held by the majority. That was the reason why he saidthat proportional representation method is good, because itenabled people, who held different views from the majority,to enter the legislature.

Therefore, Sir, my submission is that if there is anydefect is this system of election, according to me, it is this parlI amentary democratic system, it is the politicalparty system that is responsible and not the method as such.On a former occasion, I said that because of this partysystem, this parlI amentary democracy where one party isreturned and it tries to dominate another and make it impossible for the minority party to be returned andall repression and suppression takes place, it is for thatreason, Sir, I said this form of Government based uponparlI amentary democracy is not desirable. Whatever it is,Sir, my submission is this method of election, this methodof proportional representation by single transferable votewill enable peoples and parties in the country, who holdviews different from the majority party, to be represented in the legislatures. What is true in the case of election to the Council of States is equally true in the case ofelection to the House of the People. Why should it bedifferent, I ask, if this method would enable a party orsection of persons, who hold different views from thoseviews held by the majority, if this method enables thosepersons to be represented there and thereby they form whatis called `an Opposition Block'? Can you think of anyparlI amentary democracy where there is no opposition? Unlessthere is opposition, Sir, the danger of its turning itselfinto a Fascist body is there. An opposition can come intoexistence only if persons holding different views from themajority are enabled to be returned to the legislature. So,Sir, by this method and by this method alone, I submit therecan be a strong opposition in a parlI amentary democracy. So,may submission is, in the first place, on principle, thereis nothing wrong in it and as I said, it is more scientificand democratic, and I submit, that it will enable sectionshaving different views from the majority party to bereturned and thus form an opposition to the party in power.Otherwise, it will degenerate the party in power into afascist body. Therefore, Sir, I commend this method even in the case of election to the House of the People.

Sir, I do not move the other alternative amendment.

Mr. Vice-President: The article--clauses (5) up to theend--is now open for general discussion.

Pandit Thakur Dass Bhargava (East Punjab: General): Mr.Vice-President, Sir, clause (5) of article 67 speaks of thefixation of 500 representatives to the House of the Peopleand also says that these representatives shall be directlychosen by the electors and clause (b) speaks of territorialconstituencies. I sent in amendments, in regard to these twosub-sections and the purport of the amendments was that areference to article 292 be deleted, as also that theterritorial constituencies should be of contiguous areas and there should be no special constituencies or reservedconstituencies. As a matter of fact, this clause (5) onlyspeaks of one method of the choice of

the voters and doesnot say in what particular way these electors will have theright to choose the representatives. An amendment was soughtto be moved by Mr. Karimuddin to he effect that therepresentation should be by way of proportionalrepresentation by the use of cumulative voting, which to mymind clearly means a reversion to separate electorates. Ipropose that these two clauses and the question of thereservation of seats under article 292 and other articleswhich relate to elections may be fully discussed at the timewhen we are on those articles and not separately here.Because, if we choose to make modifications in article 292or 293 as they stand, the right of proper occasion to amendor adopt them will be when we will be considering thesearticles. Therefore, my humble submission is that in regardto clause (5) we may take it that unless articles 292 and293 are disposed of, we shall not be debarred from movingamendments there and modifying them as we choose. Itherefore propose that discussion about reservation ofseats, delimitation of constituencies and the method ofdelimiting them be postponed to the time when we considerarticles 292 and 293.

In regard to the rest, I also wanted to propose anamendment to clause (6) that illiteracy should also beregarded as one of the grounds for not giving a vote on thebasis of adult suffrage. If a person is illiterate, heshould not be granted the right to vote. As a matter of factmy idea in moving this amendment was not to deprive anypersons of their right of voting, because I am very much infavour of adult suffrage. I wanted that as the elections are not coming on be fore another two years or one year, by thattime, every elector should educate

himself and could at least know how to read and write, as inmy opinion reading and writing can be acquired by any personin three months. It will give a great fillip to the drivefor adult education and to the electors to make an attemptto know how to read and write if we condition the exerciseof the right of voting to literacy. When I consider, Sir,the number of electors which will come on the electoral rollif we allow the basis to be adult suffrage, I am astoundedby the magnitude of the problem. According to calculations,I understand that there will be something like twelve croresof voters. In a population of thirty crores, it is not awrong estimate to think that the number of voters may betwelve crores. If there are 500 representatives, it meansthat each contituency will consist of at least 240,000voters, if there are single members constituencies. If thereare multi-member constituencies, then if a constituencies isformed for the purpose of electing four members, there willbe something like 960,000 voters. At the present time inordinary elections for the Central Legislative Assembly, wehad from 8,000 to 40,000 voters. With this increase ofnumbers, I shudder to think how we will be able to arrangefor the elections. It will require not one or two days as atpresent for the elections; it will require, I think, about amonth. The number of booths will be very large. I think themagnitude of the problem is such that it must give seriouscause for doubt whether we would be able to hold theseelections in the manner in which we want them to be held.How will this large electorate be educated? How will youapproach these electors so that the elections might be good.When I consider that there is a proposal to have multipleconstituencies, and reserved constituencies, the situationbecomes all the worse. So far as I think, at present, aperson belonging to the Depressed classes, etc., is knownonly in his Taluka; he is not known over several districts.If the Constituency is spread over several districts, I donot know how the elections would be real. The electors willnever have occasion to know who the person elected is.Therefore, to obviate this difficulty, I would suggest, for the first ten years, just limit this right of voting toliterate people. We will be doing a thing which will bereally useful. Otherwise, in my humble opinion, theseelections will

be a great farce. Therefore, my submission isthat if the House is so advised, we should have theprovision of literacy put in clause (6).

Similarly, I have to make one point more; that is aboutsub-clause (c) of clause (5). The words in the article are"as ascertained at the last preceding census". Thepopulation as ascertained at the last preceding census will,in many cases, be absolutely wrong. In East Punjab lakhs ofpeople have come from West Punjab and gone away from EastPanjab. Similarly in West Bengal, people are still coming infrom East Bengal. In regard to Delhi, there has also been alarge influx of population. The last preceding census willnot give the correct figures and if we consider the presentposition, the figures will be quite incomparable with thereal figures in which the population is to be found in theseplaces. Therefore we shall have to have recourse to someother expedient, and the expedient which has been suggestedis in article 313. I doubt very much if we would be able toarrive at the real figures from the number of electors. Theright figures about the population from the number ofelectors will be at best a conjecture and it will not be inaccordance with the true principles set out in clauses (5)to (8). Therefore, my humble submission is that with regardto East Punjab and West Bengal, unless a census is taken, wewill not be correct in our figures. This will entail a goodlength of time. If the elections are coming in 1952 or 1951,then the position can be solved; otherwise, you will have totake a census before these provisions can be given effectto, or the words "as ascertained at the last precedingcensus will have to meaning for us. If these words are takenin their literal sense and no adaptation is made, it would mean for such of the Muslims, about 50lakhs as have left East Punjab, you will reserve about fiftyseats in the local legislature whereas the population of theMuslims at present is said to be about two lakhs. These arereal difficulties which have to be solved. Unless we solvethese difficulties, my own apprehension is that there willbe no real elections.

In regard to article 292, I have to submit one moreword. In clause (5), the reference to article 292 iscertainly not wanted, because article 292 deals with directelections, in regard to constituencies and in regard toreserved constituencies also. The present position is that they are proposed to be chosen by direct elections. Thereference to article 292 is absolutely unnecessary. Even ifit is kept, I would, with your permission, repeat this thatI take it that the reference to article 292 does not bindthe House and we would be able to modify article 292. I donot want to conceal my feelings from this House that I wantthat there should be no reservation of constituencies forany communities, i.e., no reservation of seats for anycommunity. I only want that so far as the Scheduled castesare concerned, there may be reservation of representation,which we can do on the lines suggested in article 293. We donot want any reservation of seats because if you considerthe whole question, and if you consider the multipleconstituencies, the entire elections will be absolutelyunreal. Our difficulty is that we have not realised howthese constituencies will be formed. When the matter comesto the House in a concrete form, I am perfectly sure that the House will not even touch the reservation of seats witha pair of tongs.

With these remarks, Sir, I support article 67.

Shri Deshbandhu Gupta (Delhi): *[Mr. Vice-President, Iwant to draw the attention of the House specially to part(b) and (c) clause (5) of article No. 67. My learned Friend,Pandit Thakur Dass Bhargava, has also drawn the attention of the House and has pointed out that if we are relying on thelast census figures for fixing the number of representativesthen it would affect adversely, specially in the case ofEast Punjab, West Bengal and Delhi. I want to point out thatso far as East Punjab is concerned only a little less of thepopulation which has gone away from East Punjab to thePakistan, has

come from Pakistan to East Punjab, and therefore the population of East Punjab has not swollenmuch. But as regards Delhi, it is an admitted fact, that itspopulation has greatly swollen by the influx of refugeesmore than in any other town. According to the last census,Delhi's population was about 9 lakhs, but at present it isestimated to be about 19 lakhs. Therefore it would be veryunfair for the Delhi province should the number of representatives be fixed according to the last census.

Mr. Vice-President, that is why I want Dr. Ambedkar andother to keep this fact in view. I hope that in regard toDelhi and other cities, whose population has swollen apartfrom the natural causes, due to the partition of thecountry, this fact would be borne in mind when seats areallotted to them. I think that in clause (c) if for thewords `actual population' the words `actual number ofvoters' are inserted, then there would be ground for anyobjection from any body. Therefore, I want this fact to beborne in mind, and as has been provided by article 313 of the adaptation clause or under it, or in any other form, anassurance to this effect should be given; otherwise graveinjustice would be done to Delhi and other towns, which haveabsorbed our refugee, uprooted brethren from WesternPakistan, who would be denied their due representation in the House.]

Shri Prabhudayal Himatsingka (West Bengal: General):Mr. Vice-President, Sir, in connection with clause ()5) ofarticle 67, Pandit Thakur Dass Bhargava has tried to explain the difficulties that are likely to be encountered

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* [] Translation of Hindustani Speech.

in having a proper election. The proposal is to have onemember for five to seven and a half lakhs of persons androughly speaking we may expect that there will be aboutthree lakhs voters in each constituency. However if theelection is expected to be properly held and in order toavoid the malpractices that are seen in elections on a largescale where a large number of voters are concerned, somedevice will have to be found whereby the voters may beidentified and false voting may be eliminated. Sir, we knowfrom the elections that we have had to run in the past thatwhere a large number of voters are concerned, a very largeamount of malpractice is possible on account of the votersnot being known to the persons or authority who are there asPolling Officers. So some method of identification shouldalso be devised in connection with such elections.

As regards the different amendments which have beensuggested about multiple constituencies and cumulativevotes, Pandit Thakur Dass Bhargava has also explained that it will be a very wrong thing to do it because, as it is,the constituency will be very big and if you have multipleseats, the troubles of a candidate can be better imaginedthan described. If you have multiple constituencies, eventhe best man cannot expect to be returned without a contest.If there are more than one seat in a constituency, therewill be more candidates and everyone of them, whether he isthe best man to be selected or not, will have to come byactual contest and there will be, if it is a four seat besimilarly more and the trouble that a candidate will have togo through will be enormous.

Therefore, Sir, the various amendments that have beenmoved in order to have multiple constituencies or pluralvoting should be opposed and defeated.

With these words, I support the motion as it stands.

Mr. Vice-President: Sardar Bhopinder Singh Man. Thetime at our disposal is extremely limited. As there arequite a large number of honourable Members who want tospeak, I am offering special facilities to those coming fromEast Punjab because they have very strong feelings on this matter, and I hope the House will see the reason for thisspecial concession given to them. Now, you will kindlyconfine your remarks to as short a time as possible.

Sardar Bhopinder Sing Man.

Sardar Bhopinder Singh Man (East Punjab: Sikh): *[Mr.Vice-President, while discussing this article, two

pointshave emerged clearly on which we, as a minority, feelstrongly. In your last meeting you had decided without anyreservation that so far as minorities were concerned, theyhad been given reservation of seats on principle. Whileaccepting this principle you had given them an option thatif they decide to give it up, they could do so gladly. But Ifeel that while reopening this question, that offer has beenwithheld; may the right is being snatched away from them.Where is the occasion, I fail to understand, for being insuch a hurry, to make a change so early, and I canunderstand this much that after the expiry of ten years,when the minorities feel that the majority has gained theirfull confidence, then they should give up this right of their own accord.]

Mr. Vice-President: I am afraid that you are speakingon the right of separate representation: that has nothing todo with the clause in hand. I appeal to you to confine yourremarks to the subject of the clause under discussion.

This is my final ruling

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* [ ]Translation of Hindustani Speech.

Sardar Bhopinder Singh Man: [Mr. Vice-President, I would like that at the time of forming these constituencies,particular care should be taken to make them pluralconstituencies. The right which you have conferred on theminorities can be preserved only if you make theconstituencies in such a way that they should be able torepresent themselves. It is necessary, because theminorities have not gained full confidence of the majorityup till now. There is yet another point. Pandit Bhargava istrying to have the constituencies so shaped that the ruralshould be amalgamated with the urban constituencies. But thestandard of literacy in the rural areas is so low that whilecompeting with the urban areas, they can never succeed.Besides the old dispute between the producers and theconsumers still exists. Whatever we produce, we sell them in`Mandies' and when 25,000 votes shall be pitted against us,to any mind the people of the rural areas shall never beable to send their representatives while contesting with thepeople of urban areas and the stockists. What will be theresult under such circumstances? The result will be that theproducers whose standard of literacy is low and who live infar off small hamlets, would not be able to send theirrepresentatives through elections. Another result will bethat the `Mandies' would become centre of the country. Thetwenty or twenty five thousand voters of mandies will alwaystry to suppress the villagers politically. We in the Punjabfeel that so long as there is fundamental difference betweenthe procedures and the consumers, they should have separateconstituencies. Therefore, what we want we want is that thedelimiting Committee should not be influenced by PanditBhargava's speech and this difference should be kept intact,namely, the rural constituencies should be kept separatefrom the urban constituencies.

There is yet another point. In East Punjab a largepopulation is fluid. Some have migrated to Delhi and a partof it is going back out of Delhi. Then again it is not knownwhat population has stayed in the Punjab and how much hasmigrated. In these circumstances, it is unavoidable that acensus should be taken in East Punjab. To my mind, withoutan accurate census, confusion might prevail. Therefore, I amof the opinion that arrangements should be made for takingof a census immediately, and the rural and the urbanconstancies should be formed separately and they should beplural.]

Sardar Hukam Singh (East Punjab: Sikh): Mr. Vice-President, Sir, we have provided that reservation be madefor minorities under the present Constitution reservation ofseats, I mean. Certainly there are two methods only by whichwe can safeguard the interests of minorities. Up to now, theminorities have enjoyed separate electorates and someweightage as well. That has gone, because we have decidedthat on principle and basically that is a wrong method andno minority should have any weightage or any

separateelectorate. There are, as I said, only two methods, onerecommended by the Minorities Committee, that there shouldbe reservation of seats and that is also provided in theDraft `Constitution under Articles 202 to 299. I agree withPandit Thakur Dass Bhargava when he said that it would bebetter if both these clauses were taken together, and thediscussion of this part of article 67 taken up at the timewhen article 292 was also being discussed. The amendmentsthat are now before the House, by Mr. Karimuddin and anotherhonourable Member, certainly are the opposite or thealternative of the reservation of seals, provided in thosesections. Sir I, am of opinion that if separate electorateshave perpetuated communalism, which is so detestable andreprehensible, this reservation of seats, does no less(hear, hear). I think it is rather more harmful for theminorities, and it does not safeguard their interests. Butit is, on the other hand, beneficial to the majority. Whenyou are reserving, say 30 per cent, for the minorities,indirectly you are reserving 70 percent for the majority.This allowance or concession or option to contest ureserve aseats as well, is in my opinion very thusery, when is as brought into actual practice. Further, this reservation,though it is not just now before the House, because the twomethods are to be discussed side by side, I am taking it,--and I crave the indulgence of the House in listening to mepatiently,--this reservation of seats is rather harmful andwould create the same atmosphere that we abhor so much. Whenthe minorities see that certain Members of their owncommunity, offensive to them, are being pushed up and backedby the majority community, certainly the relations would getstrained and our object would not be fulfilled at all. Andsecondly, under this reservation of seats, the majoritywould be able to secure some Members from the minorities of their own choice, while there will be a certain proportionthat would be returned by the minorities themselves. Sothere will be two sections and a further rift would becreated between the sections of the minority communityitself.

Shri L. Krishnaswami Bharathi: Sir, on a point oforder, we are not discussing here the question ofreservation of seats, and so I would like to know if theseremarks are relevant.

Mr. Vice-President: They are relevant in the sense that the honourable Members is defending proportionalrepresentation. Am I right?

Sardar Kukam Singh: Yes.

Shri L. Krishnaswami Bharathi: But this is a matter ofgreat importance on which we will have to concentrate and somore time will have to be allotted if we are discussing it.I wanted to bring that aspect of the matter, because it is avery big issue and...

Mr. Vice-President: In accordance with my generalpolicy, I shall allow Sardar Hukam Singh to speak and torefer to the question of reservation of seats, by way ofillustrating the advantages of the system under discussion.

Shri L. Krishnaswami Bharathi: Sir, I should not beunderstood as wishing to shut out such discussion at all,but what I wanted to..

Mr. Vice-President: Will the honourable Member pleasetake his seat?

We must be generous and we as a majority community mustbe generous to the minorities (hear, hear). It has provedits generosity so far; let not that tradition be broken.

Now please continue Sardar Humam Singh.

Sardar Hukam Singh: I am thankful to the House and to the Vice-President, though I do not crave for any generosityat this moment. I will not discuss that point further.

Sir, it has been argued here by more than one Memberthat plural member constituencies and cumulative votingwould be too costly and unworkable. My position is that ifseparate electorates are detestable and if reservation ofseats is objectionable, then some method has to be devisedby which the rights of minorities can be safeguarded andthat this is the only method suggested in the amendmentsthat can be considered. If it is cumbersome and if it iscostly, then it has to be settled in accordance with thedemocratic principles that we are following now.

And mysubmission is that this is the only mode by which we cansatisfy the minorities and stick to our principles that we have chalked out so far.

Shri V. I. Muniswamy Pillai (Madras: General): Mr.Vice-President, Sir..

Mr. Vice-President: May I request the honourableMembers to take as little time as possible? There are manyhonourable Members who desire to speak and I would like toaccommodate as many of them as possible.

Shri V. I. Muniswamy Pillai: Sir, in supporting article67, I may say that I specially welcome sub-clause (6) whichenvisages adult suffrage. Speaking for the Scheduled Castes I may say that this kind ofelection is highly needed at a time like this when we havejust secured freedom for this country. Under the Poona Pact,the Scheduled Castes had to submit to two elections--thepanel election and the general elections. I know as a matterof fact that this has caused great inconvenience to thecandidates.

Sir, one of the Members of the Assembly has moved for the adoption of the cumulative system of voting. I feel that this cumulative system of voting under the present set-up ismost dangerous, because the communities will have to go awayfrom the main body of electors. So I feel that on no accountshould this cumulative system be encouraged. Thedistributive system of voting is bound to bring the variouscommunities together and prove worthy of the laboursundergone by them in maintaining the freedom that we havewon.

One of the Members, speaking on this article, observedthat reservation of seats for the minorities must go and, atthe same time, generously stated that, so far as theScheduled Castes are concerned, they should not bedisturbed. Sir, I welcome the statement made by PanditBhargava. This matter of the reservation of seats andprotection for the minorities has been dealt with in thissovereign body and we have come to certain decisions. Ifthere is a feeling that this matter should be re-opened, theproper place to do that will be when we discuss articles 292and 293. Whatever it may be, I feel and also every Member of the Scheduled Castes in this sovereign body feels that theprotection given to this community should not be disturbed.You yourself know, Sir, in your tours throughout thecountry, the disabilities of the Harijan community. TheMinorities Report has considered those things and thissovereign body after considering that report has agreed togive some protection to the minority communities. That beingso, without taking more time of the House I will conclude bysaying that the safeguards and the protection afforded to the Scheduled Castes and tribes should not be disturbed.When we deal with articles 292 and 293, as I said, we canhave elaborate discussion on the various points that may beraised then as regards protection for minorities.

Mr. Vice-President: Mr. Khandekar may now address the House. I expect him to confine his remarks to the matterunder discussion and to take as little time as possible.There are limits to the patience of the majority communityon this question.

Shri S. Nagappa (Madras: General): My friends say that there is no limit to their patience.

Mr. Vice-President: That was a remark meant for Mr.Khandekar only.

Shri H. J. Khandekar (C. P. & Berar: General): *[Mr.Vice-President, I rise to express my views on the matterthat is at present engaging the attention of the House. Whenwe go through clause (5) of article 67, we find that theprovisions of this clause are subject to the provisions ofarticles 292 and 293. Article 292 provides for reservationof seats for minority communities and since I myself belongto a scheduled caste--a minority community, I am glad that this House has accepted the article. The Minorities Sub-Committee and the Advisory Committee had also recommended to the House for reservation of seats for minorities. I neednot say much about the condition of the minority communitiesto which I belong. The scheduled castes constitute thatsection of the country which has been kept suppressed by theother sections for the last thousands of years and which

hasbeen denied social and political rights.

I may recall to you, Sir, that under the Government ofIndia Act, 1919, provision had been made for the nominationof persons belonging to the scheduled cases for some seatsreserved for this purpose in the Provincial Legislatures.Our representatives present at the Round Table Conferencehad

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* [] Translation of Hindustani Speech.

made a demand that seats be reserved for scheduled castesaccording to the numerical strength. But to the misfortuneof our community, Mr. Macdonald gave an award according towhich the scheduled castes which have a population of 75millions in the country, got only seventy two seats out of atotal of 1580 seats, that is, the Macdonald Award allottedus seats many times less than what we should have beengiven, according to our population. I am very glad that whenthe Award was announced, Respected Bapu undertook a fast inYervada Jail as a result of which the Poona Pact gave thescheduled castes 151 seats out of a total of 1580 in theProvincial Legislatures, i.e., just double of what they hadbeen given under the Macdonald Award. I therefore expressgratitude to Respected Bapu on behalf of my community. Butin this connection I can say that allotment of 151 seats wasalso not in proportion to our numerical strength and as myFriend Mr. Muniswamy Pillai has observed, we had to contesttwo elections under the Poona Pact. First, for Panelelection there was contest amongst ourselves and after thatin the general election we contested the candidates of othercommunities. At that time there was cumulative system ofvoting for us and not the distributive system. My Friend Mr.Kazi Syed Karimuddin has moved an amendment, No. 1415 on thelist, seeking to introduce cumulative system of voting. Ifit is accepted, elections will be held on the basis ofcumulative system of voting. Under this system if there betwo seats, one reserved and the other general, in aconstituency every voter would be given two ballot papersand he would have the option to cast both of his votes forone candidate or distribute these among two candidates. Inthis case naturally a voter, to whichever community he maybelong, will cast both of his votes for the candidatebelonging to his community and not to person of othercommunities. Communal rivalry therefore will continue. We have to do away with communalism as early as possible and therefore I oppose that amendment. As I belong to Harijancommunity whose elections were so far held on the basis of the cumulative system of voting, I have more experience ofit than others. I have still in my mind the disastrousresults of the cumulative system. The minorities Sub-Committee and the Advisory Sub-Committee which were formedby this Assembly and above all Dr. Ambedkar himself who hasbeen the greatest supporter of separate electorate havedisapproved of separate electorate and have, by voting forjoint electorate, eliminated the canker of communalism fromour polity. I thank them all for this. In the circumstancesI have no option but to interpret this move of Kazi SyedKarimuddin as motivated by the desire to secure separateelectorates by indirect means, for while on the one hand wewould be abolishing separate electorate, on the other wewould be retaining it by having the cumulative system ofvoting. If we accept the amendment, it is plain that itsconsequences would be that members of a community wouldunder the cumulative system of voting, cast their votes for the candidate belonging to their community, and thusseparate electorates will continue to exist indirectly. Itherefore oppose the amendment moved by Mr. Kazi SyedKarimuddin.

There is another point to which I would like to drawthe attention of Dr. Ambedkar, and I hope he would give hisconsideration to it. Sub-Clause 5 (c) of the article refersto a census. A few days ago a clause in which the expression"latest census" occurs, was discussed and passed by thisHouse. It would be better if we add the word `latest' beforethe word `census' in this clause also in

order to bring itinto uniformity with that clause. I may state the reason whyI make this suggestion. In the next election to be heldunder article 292, minorities will have some reserved seatsin the Provincial Assemblies. They will have one seat forevery one hundred thousand of population and in the CentralAssembly one seat for every million of population. I amsorry to have to say, Sir, that we do not trust the censusfigures recorded in 1941 because the population of Harijans shown in thatcensus is very incorrect. Therefore, Sir, unless a freshcensus is taken and the population of Harijans ascertained,I do not believe we would be allotted our due numbers ofseats. I may submit, Sir, that according to our populationthere should have been sixty members from amongst ourcommunity in this House, because before partition ourpopulation was sixty millions. In this connection I am sorryto say, Sir, that in spite of the announcement of theBritish Government and the decision of the Congress, thatHarijans would also have representation according to theirpopulation, only twenty seven representatives of Harijansare here in this House. And I may add that it is somethingpainful to me.

We would like to return our representatives accordingto our population. Even if it be found that it comes to onlytwenty millions we would not mind sending only twentymembers. But a census must be taken before elections areheld. I am sure our population can under no circumstances beonly twenty millions. Even today when the country has beenpartitioned, our population is at least sixty millions. Imake this assertion without referring to the exact figuresof our population. But I am sure that if reservation ofrepresentation for the scheduled castes--on the basis of onerepresentative for every one hundred thousand of theirpopulation--is maintained in the next elections and for thispurpose figures of their population are collected it wouldbe found that their population even now is not less thanseven crores. It is a well known fact, Sir, that the birthrate is high among the poor. We have no money, no learning,but we possess great capacity for producing children. Iemphatically say that we are not less than seventy millionstoday in India. In view of these facts fresh census shouldcertainly be taken.

With these words, Sir, I would appeal to Honourable Dr.Ambedkar that while replying to the debate he would kindlymake the position clear regarding the words "precedingcensus" that occur in this clause. I submit, Sir, thatunless a fresh census is taken, neither the provision forreservation of seats, nor electorates would be helpful toany minority. It may be that if a fresh census is takenelections are delayed. But I do not think that it must needsbe so. Even if the elections are to be delayed we should notbe affected by that prospect. People of every section of thecountry say that there should be amelioration in theconditions of the Harijans. But this should not remain with these people merely a matter of lip sympathy. It shouldrather be their sincere desire and ought to be translatedinto practice. Even if elections are delayed by a year or soon account of the suggestion made above, we should not mindsuch delay.

With these words, Sir, I support the article and opposethe amendment moved by Mr. Kazi Syed Karimuddin.]

Shri Biswanath Das (Orissa: General): Sir, I have cometo support the article and in doing so, I feel it necessaryto place certain facts before the Assembly. Sir, I thinkthat articles 67 and 149 should have been discussed togetherbecause they are correlated and one is complementary orsupplementary to the other. As such, I feel that it couldhave been a great convenience to the honourable Members ofthis House if both these articles had been discussedtogether. I have to place before the honourable Members ofthis House the immensity of the resolution that they arepassing today. We are giving our seal of approval to themost important principle, namely the principle of adultsuffrage, by which every adult--male or female--in thiscountry irrespective of the

fact that he is a plains-man orbelonging to the hill tribes or to the scheduled caste,becomes a voter and as such shares the responsibilities andanxieties of the administration of the State and becomes anequal citizen absolutely and in all respects. Having adoptedthis important principle it is necessary that we realise theimmensity of the proposal. This makes me feel that we will hereafter have an electorate which in no casewill be less than twenty crores. It may be more. Myhonourable Friend Pandit Thakur Dass Bhargava I think didless than justice when he stated that the number of votersmay be somewhere between 15 and 16 crores. Our population is32 crores and if those below 21 are eliminated I feel surethat the number of voters is bound to exceed 20 crores. 15percent is taken as children of the school-going age, whoare below 14. If that is so, I have no hesitation in sayingthat 25 per cent may as well be taken as people below theage of 21. As such three-fourths of the entire existingpopulation may be taken as voters. Therefore, the countryand the Government will have to keep themselves ready someet the immensity of the proposal that they are acceptingtoday. There would thus be a minimum of twenty crores ofvoters, which would mean that there should be about 2 lakhspolling stations and four lakhs of polling officers. I donot know how long it will take to conduct and finish theelections. I therefore appeal to the Government and also toyou as the person primarily in charge of this work, so faras we are here concerned, to take immediate action in timeto set up the machinery to carry out this stupendous task.It is through you that we are devising a special agency forthis purpose, namely the election commission but that doesnot minimise the tremendousness of the task.

Having stated so far about the immensity of theproblem, I would come to two areas which give enough causefor anxiety. These are the States and provinces in the northand also the provinces of West Bengal and Assam. In thesetwo different and distinct areas there has been hugemigration of the population. Lakhs and millions of peoplehave migrated either to Pakistan or have come away fromthere. We have reservation of seats; and not only that, incertain cases, as in the case of the aboriginal population,the constitution has prescribed that whether they live onthe hills or on the plains they have to be taken togetherand seats to be reserved on that basis. That being theposition I think it would be doing a grave injustice to thepeople of East Punjab as also to the states borderingPakistan in the North and also probably to the Union ofSourashtra and Bombay, as also to the two provinces of Assamand West Bengal, if a census is not taken. I think a censusis called for, because of article 149. This article laysdown that the basis of representation has to be devised onthe figures of the previous census. The previous census isthe one that was taken in 1941. It is a fact within commonknowledge that due to the war and in the name of papershortage and the like the then government did not think itnecessary to take a full-fledged census. Not only that butwhat little information was gathered was also left asidewith the result that an abridged census was taken. Everysince, much water has flown under the bridges. Therefore it is necessary that to be fair to these areas in the North-East and the North-West early census is necessary. A specialcensus in these areas for this purpose should be undertaken.In this connection need I invite your attention to what hasbeen done in Pakistan? In Pakistan they have undertaken acensus in the Provinces of Sind and the West Punjab as alsoin East Bengal and they have come to certain conclusions for the purpose of representation in the Constituent Assemblyafter this census. What was done in Pakistan could haveeasily been done in India and need I say that even today it is not too late for a census to be taken in all seriousnesswithout further delay.

Having said so much about census I come to anotheraspect of this question. Soon after passing the

ThirdReforms Act in the British ParlI ament the late lamentedGladstone declared in the House of Commons that the time hascome when they should find more money and put forth alltheir exertions to educate their "little masters". Who arethese little masters? These little masters are the voters:they are the real masters. What have you done to educate your little masters? In this country the percentageof literacy is about ten per cent. Female literacy is muchlower; so also is the case with the scheduled castes. Asregards literacy among the hill tribes whom you haveenfranchised in full and given the right to vote, it ispractically next to nothing. What a tremendous risk you havetaken? You are calling upon them to vote, but who are they?A very highly inflammable class of people who have up todate absolutely no experience either of propaganda or ofvoting in elections. Therefore I warn you to take earlysteps in this regard, so that the difficulties that I haveplaced before you are minimised. And what have you done inthis regard to minimise them? You have done nothing. Lastyear it was my misfortune to have an interpellation in theConstituent Assembly (Legislative) to know whetherGovernment have undertaken to appoint an organisation todelimit the constituencies. The reply was that it hadalready been done. What is the sort of delimitation that youhave already undertaken? The Provincial Governments areasked to delimit the constituencies; they have asked theirofficials and some blessed official sits and delimits theconstituencies. Is that the sort of delimitation that youare going to have under this Constitution? I warn theGovernment, and through you, Sir, I beg of the honourableMembers of this Constituent Assembly to see that theseconditions are changed. Immediate action is necessary to seethat delimitation of constituencies is undertaken andnecessary steps in that regard should immediately be taken.

With these words, Sir, I fully support the article, butwith the warning that I have given.

Maulana Hasrat Mohani (United Provinces: Muslim):*[Sir, I had very little to say about article 67, but onething has compelled me to speak something regarding this.]

Shri S. Nagappa: Mr. Vice-President, the Maulana canspeak in English.

Mr. Vice-President: Can the honourable Member not speakin English?

Maulana Hasrat Mohani: I have to make an effort.

Mr. Vice-President: That does not matter, we care onlyfor thoughts, not for your language.

Maulana Hasrat Mohani: *[And what is that mentioned inthis article which has compelled me to express my thoughts?It is this: clause (5) (a) reads thus: "Subject to theprovisions of articles 292 and 293 of this Constitution, the House of the People shall consist of not more than fivehundred representatives of the people of the territories of the states directly chosen by the voters." The meaning ofthis clause and of article 293 is that seats have beenreserved for minorities. I am, therefore, strongly opposedto reservation of seats and there should be no reservationunder any circumstances. I say that there is absolutely noneed of reservations, after we have made provision for jointelectorates and adult franchise. The two cannot go together.When the electorates would be joint, it would mean thateverybody will have the right to stand and to contest fromeach and every constituency. On communal basis you aremaking its scope limited as you have already said that youwould like to give reservations to the Muslims because theyare in minority. I do not know about scheduled castes, but afriend of mine has just said that you would not like to givethem any reservation. Why do you call the Muslims aminority? They can be termed as a minority only when theyfunction as a communal body. So long as Muslims were in theMuslim League, they were in a minority. But if they elect toform a political party without any restriction leaving itopen to any community, then you should remember thatwhenever political parties would be formed, the Muslimswould give fight by forming coalitions. Therefore, I saythat Muslims would

not like to be called a

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* [] Translation of Hindustani Speech.

minority. To say that Muslims are in minority is to insultthem. I cannot tolerate this even for a moment. I have had atalk with several Members. They have told me: We areconceding this to the Muslims out of generosity. I ask: Whois asking for this generosity? Muslims will become part of the majority party and they will become majority. We do notwant any generosity or concession from you. Does any Muslimrequire it? Concession to whom? We refuse to accept anyconcession. In case majority party or the Congress partyaccepts reservation of seats, its claim for creating asecular State and of putting an end to communalism. Theproof is that this hob-goblin, namely that Muslims are 14per cent and Hindus are 86 per cent, and that the Muslimsbeing 14 per cent, reservation should be given to them--still persists in your mind. I think that the question ofreservation of seats has been raised by the NationalistMuslims who had always been your slaves and slaves of theCongress. You want to reserve these seats for them and whenthese 14 or 15 per cent seats are reserved they would getthem first of all. I take the responsibility, we willisolate the nationalists. Muslims will form coalitions andshall defeat the purpose of your device and I am sure that the Muslims shall not remain in minority.]

Giani Gurmukh Singh Musafir (East Punjab: Sikh): *[Mr.Vice-President, I had no mind to speak today but as animportant matter is under discussion, I would very much liketo express my opinion. I am therefore thankful to you, Sir,for giving me this opportunity to speak. Two points havebeen raised concerning article No. 67, one is regarding thecensus and the other about the constituencies. In clause (5)of the article there is a reference to article 292 whichdeals with the question of minorities and hence it would berelevant here to speak about the reservation of the minorityproblems. It would be to my liking if the chapter pertainingto the minorities is altogether removed; without that therecan be no salvation for the country. There remains thequestion of reservation. Howsoever much one may ponder overthe question, he is bound to come to the conclusion thatreservation on population basis is of no good to theminorities; and particularly for the Sikhs, reservation isof no use. I am afraid, now the situation is taking such aturn--it may be said the Sikhs are more particular toreservation even than others. I know, at present such thingspertaining to matters of policy and others alike, are goingon, and which are quite natural during such interim periods.I will not go into the details. Our leaders might havebefore them some considerations on grounds of expediency andso I would not go into that matter. But this much I wouldlike to make clear that if reservation is retained in the Constitution, it would not be because of the Sikhs. In otherwords, what I mean to say is that Sikhs would not be in theleast benefited by reservation. To cramp them withreservation is to check all their progress. Of course I dothink of the Harijans and Scheduled Castes in thisconnection. But at the same time I think that just as thepoison of separate electorate is being removed from thisConstitution, similarly no other canker should be allowed toremain by which the communalism may again spread. To achievethis end healthy conventions can be established. Suitablerepresentation can be made through nominations, as wouldleave no room for objection from any one.

The second point is regarding the constituencies.Pandit Thakur Dass Bhargava had tabled an amendment but itwas not moved, and he did not even press for it. This,however, is quite another matter. In my opinion, urban andrural constituencies should be kept separate. Time is notyet ripe to have joint electorates. People of rural areasneed education first. They are very backward at present,while people of urban areas are advanced. If one is on thetop and the other is on the floor, they cannot meet.

Inother words a motor-car and a tonga cannot be run together.It is necessary to

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* [] Translation of Hindustani speech.

gradually raise the level of the man at the bottom, and itwill also be necessary for the man on the top to mould hismentality in such a way as to treat the man below like hisown brother. Only after this has been done, the purpose willbe achieved. I do not mean thereby that disparity betweenthe urban and rural areas should be perpetuated, and I donot lay much emphasis on the point that village people arebackward. It is possible that in other aspects there is moreawakening in the rural areas, but it is a fact that theyhave not much resources. They are so placed that only ourgovernment can make any arrangements for them. At presentaccess to villages is difficult. For these reasons I thinkthat rural constituencies should be kept separate, otherwisevillage people would be at a disadvantage. With these wordsI support this article.]

Prof. Shibban Lal Saksena (United Provinces: General):Mr. Vice-President, Sir, out of the articles which we havepassed so far excepting perhaps articles Nos. 13 and 25which guarantee fundamental freedoms, this article I thinkis the most important article. Here we are giving the rightto vote to every adult citizen of India, and I think, peoplewill realize later on what this really means. The electionso far has been held on a narrow franchise, and now if in the new census the population of India is nearly 35 crores,we should have an electorate of about 20 crores in thecountry. Even America has got only about 5 or 6 crores ofvoters. But here 20 crores of voters will go to the polls toelect their representatives. I think this fundamental rightof adult suffrage guaranteed to all people is the mostimportant part of the Constitution. It has raised greathopes in us and today we are realising the ideal for whichwe have fought for the last so many years. I think that inclause (6), which guarantees this right, the word `crime'has also been included as disqualifying a person from beinga voter. I feel that even those persons who have been tojail, but have come back afterwards and reformed themselvesshould not be debarred from becoming voters, and I,therefore, think that the word `crime' should not have beenthere. I have no objection to all other conditions, non-residence, unsoundness of mind, etc. being there.

Then, Sir, this article is an omnibus article providingfor the constitution of the Council of States and the Houseof the people. Sir, I cannot refrain from saying that I amone of those who believe in only one Chamber and not twoChambers. Here they have provided for two Chambers and theworst part of this is that in the Upper Chamber we shallhave twelve nominated Members; and we passed the other daythat even those Members, who have been nominated and whowill never seek the vote of the people, can become Ministersalso. I think this is a most undemocratic aspect of ourConstitution. Everybody who was a specialist in literature,art and science could surely have got...

Mr. Vice-President: May I ask the honourable Member torefrain from referring to business which has already beenpassed. The present discussion is with regard to clause (5)up to the end. That was what was agreed to by the House.

Prof. Shibban Lal Saksena: If that is the position. Iwill refrain from referring to the earlier clauses, althoughI think we are discussing the whole article.

Then, Sir, another thing in this article is theprovision for delimitation of constituencies having apopulation between 5 lakhs and 7 1/2 lakhs. I think theupper limit was unnecessary. It is not provided anywhere howthe exact figure between these two limits will bedetermined, but I think the average figure will be thefigure suited for allotment of seats to every province, andwill be somewhere about 6,25,000. I personally think that the clause as it stands, will create great difficulties.

There will have to be big multiple constituencies of 13lakhs and twenty lakhs

population and I do not think poorcandidates will be in a position to contest in suchconstituencies. If we want reservation for minorities, bigmultiple constituencies cannot be avoided. Only those peoplewho are rich will then be able to get elected. Besidesreservations will keep communal passions alive. I thereforethink we must have no reservations. In fact, I was very gladto hear my honourable Friends Maulana Hasrat Mohani andGiani Gurmukh Singh Musafir when they said that they do notwant any reservation. I think this Constitution mustcompletely abolish all reservation. Let us have a completelysecular State where every one will be a free citizen ofIndia and every one can get elected irrespective of hiscommunity. I am sure communal passions will die out in a fewyears and there will be no need for any reservation. I thinkthe time has come, and certainly by the time the electionsare held, we shall require no special reservations. If wedecide to have reservation for minorities, then theamendment which Dr. Ambedkar did not move should have beenmoved; otherwise, there will have to be very bigconstituencies. Even if there is to be one general seat, oneHarijan seat and one other reserved Muslim seat in aparticular constituency, there will be about eleven lakhs ofvoters which each candidate will have to canvass and noordinary person can approach eleven lakhs of voters with hislimited resources. Then, there will have to be innumerablebooths; I do not know how many booths will be required. I think it will be an impossible task and so even frompractical considerations, I think reservations should cease.Again, it is also possible, if there are to be very bigmultiple constituencies, some people may not be able to geta fair chance; their sphere of influence may be broken up orit may be resumed for a minority community.

Therefore, the only possible and practical course isthat there should be no reservations. I am sure the fear of the minorities will soon be removed and I am sure that thepeople who are now in favour of reservation will also comeforward and say that they do not want any reservation willalso come forward and say that they do not want anyreservation. If no reservation is made, we must see that alarger number of members of the minority communities arereturned than their population entitles them to.

Sir, the proviso to sub-clause (b) of clause (5) isproposed to be omitted. This is also not fair. Underarticle 67 clause (1), in the Council of States, the numberof representatives of the States shall not exceed forty percent. Here, in the Lower House the proportion is sought tobe abolished. If the States remain to some extent what theyare today, if they only accede to the extent of Defence,Communications, etc., this abolition of the proviso will notbe possible. The number of representatives from the Statesmay be larger than is warranted by their population. I thinkthe original proposition was better. The States should haveseats only in proportion to their population. If the Statescome into line with the provinces, and the distinction isobliterated, then of course there will be no objection to the omission of the proviso.

Sir, I had given notice of an amendment for thedeletion of clause (7) My purpose was, I did not want thatParlI ament should have the power to make laws to provide for the representation in the House of the People of territoriesother than States. This is a matter for the Constitution andnot for the ParlI ament. ParlI ament may always try to makelaws in favour of the party which is in power. ParlI amentshould be debarred from making laws in respect of suchmatters. I think clause (7) should be deleted, because itgives to ParlI ament the power of creating additional seatsin the House of the People.

Sir, these are very important considerations. We havealready discussed so many amendments and I think the verdictof the House will be soon known. Only those amendments which are accepted by Dr. Ambedkarwill be accepted by the House. Even though this article isnot as I wish it to be, still I think it is

a very importantarticle and it should be passed.

Shri M. Ananthasayanam Ayyangar (Madras: General): Mr.Vice-President, Sir, I shall address myself only to some of the more important amendments of substance that have beenmoved relating to clauses (5) to (8) of article 67.

Sir, I am much obliged and it is very gratifying to seethat members of the minority communities, particularly, myhonourable Friends Mr. Karimuddin and Mr. Mahboob Ali Baigwere against any reservation for their community. In itsplace, they have suggested two methods of election; one,proportional representation by means of the singletransferable vote, and the other proportional representationby means of cumulative vote.

Mahboob Ali Baig Sahib Bahadur: May I correct myfriend? I never said anything about reservation of seats.

Shri M. Ananthasayanam Ayyangar: Very well; I standcorrected. So far as my friend Mr. Karimuddin is concerned,he did not want any reservation. In its place he wantedelection by proportional representation by means of thecumulative vote. Mr. Mahboob Ali Baig evidently wants to runwith the hare and hunt with the hounds. He wants both thisand that; I will come to him later. The majority opinionseems to be against reservation that is provided for inarticles 292 and 293. I also find that with the exception of the Scheduled Castes, so far as the provision for others isconcerned, there is the other opinion also from members whodo not belong to the minority community that suchreservations ought not to exist. Of course, this matter willstand over and will be discussed more elaborately when wecome to article 292 and 293. In the interests of theminorities, I would urge that it would not be very useful to them if they insist on reservations, because .........

Mr. Vice-President: Are you speaking on article 292?

Shri M. Ananthasayanam Ayyangar: No; I am referring to the alternative that has been proposed.

Shri Jaspat Roy Kapoor: (United Provinces: General):Why not delete reference to article 292 here from thisclause?

Shri M. Ananthasayanam Ayyangar: That is the subjectmatter of the amendment moved by the my honourable FriendMr. Karimuddin. He wanted reference to articles 292 and 293to be omitted and in its place add something relating to themethod of election: proportional representation by means ofcumulative vote. Therefore, if I have said anything inregard to the absence of reservations, which is thesubstance of articles 292 and 293, I submit with all respectthat I am absolutely relevant in what I have said. Mr.Karimuddin's amendment wants to do away with reservationsreferred to in article 292 and article 293 and in its place,he feels that it would be more useful if the minoritiescould have proportional representation with cumulativevoting. Two methods of election have been suggested. Withall respect to the mover, I would suggest that proportionalrepresentation by means of the single transferable vote isnot practicable at all. These are large constituencies andeach constituency will consist of population ranging betweenfive lakhs and seven and a half lakhs. Further, we are notan advanced country; many of the people are not literate.The literate population of our country is not more thanfourteen per cent. Exercising preference by means of thesingle transferable vote is impossible. We commit mistakeseven on the floor of the House in the Legislative side whenwe elect members of the Standing Committees in Legislaturefor the various Departments. We do not exercise our votesproperly. Therefore it is impossible to expect theilliterate voters to be able to exercise their votesproperly. For a long time to come it is unthinkable having regard to thelow progress of literacy in our country.

Then as regards proportional representation by means ofcumulative votes, my suggestion is that has been triedregarding the scheduled caste primary election. I wouldrefer to Volume III of the Constitutional Precedentspublished by Sir B. N. Rau; at page 161 he has appended anAppendix to the Chapter on the system of

representation.Therein he says--

"The number of seats a party captures in an electiondepends on the correctness with which it has gauged thesupport it commands in each of the constituncies, and set upthe right number of candidates on its behalf."

As an illustration he says in the Appendix how theCongress lost both seats by miscalculation when it waspossible for the Congress to have captured at least oneseat. That is what happended in 1937 in the C. P.Legislative Assembly elections--Bhandars Sakoli (GeneralRural). Both seats were lost to the Congress. Then theCongress party contested in the Bombay Legislative Council,Bombay city and Suburban Districts, two out of four seats.If it had under estimated or over-estimated its electoralstrength and nominated less or more candidates, it wouldhave lost a seat. Now therefore this cumulative electionwould not absolutely be appropriate.

Shri L. Krishnaswami Bharathi: That is not proportionalrepresentation.

Shri M. Ananthasayanam Ayyangar: That is also a kind ofproportional representation. I advocate neither the systemby single transferable vote nor by cumulative vote. The oneis impossible and the other would not meet the purpose. Inthat way social justice would not be rendered. On thesegrounds neither the amendment of Mr. Karimuddin nor that ofMr. Baig is worth considering. I oppose both of them. Prof.Shah suggested that there ought not to be any restriction onthe number of members in the House of the People. He saidthere must be as many as possible. My impression is 500 islarge enough. Already, in a House which consists of threehundred members, almost every day we have to ring the bellto get a quorum; and so what is the good of multiplying thenumber? There will not be effective representation. Thesmaller the number of members, the more effective it willbe. Of course it ought not to be too small. Five hundredseems to be quite a good number. Besides 500 is not such afixed and an inviolable number at that: because underarticles 292 and 293 provision is made for nomination in thecase of Anglo-Indian community if they are not represented.Likewise, for the territories which did not form part of the States, the ParlI ament is entitled under the article clause(7), by law, to provide for their representation in the House of the People. The five hundred under clause (5), arerepresentatives only from States. There can be in additionto the five hundred, some Anglo-Indian members and alsomembers representing territories other than those from the States. Under those circumstances five hundred is not adefinite number; but it ought not to be increasedenormously.

Then my friend, Pandit Thakur Dass Bhargava, suggestedthat a kind of qualification ought to be imposed, though hedid not move the amendment that literates alone ought to beallowed to vota. Sir, I want a clause insisting that theremust be imposition of penalty on those people who refrainfrom voting. For a long time to come unless people in thiscountry are compelled to come to the Polling Station, manypeople may not care to exercise their votes at all, and ifyou put a further qualification that they must be literate,I am sure none will take interest. You are giving adultsuffrage and the vote of a single individual may not count.If most our people are not literate till now, whose fault itis? It is too much to expect that everyone will become literate within a period of two years. Moreover, literacy isnot the only qualification. I know a number of people whoare not literate but have very good commonsense,--more thanpeople with academic qualifications.

Pandit Thakur Dass Bhargava: Signing the name can belearnt in two months.

Shri M. Ananthasayanam Ayyangar: With what effect? it is idle to think that merely if a man is able to sign hisname, he will immediately become such a literate andeducated man as to exercise his vote properly; I should saysuch a qualification is unnecessary. Wisely he has not movedan amendment to that effect. On the other hand it may benecessary in the future years when the election becomes socostly and people may

not come to the polling station thatyou may have to have a provision, as exists in some otherconstitutions, that there must be a compulsion on voters tocome and vote. As regards early elections, I would wish thateven from now the various provincial Government must take upthe task of making up the list of qualified voters and alsodelimiting constituencies. That is the object with which we have come to some of these articles and have taken up onlythose articles which relate to elections. We are alsoproceeding from here, with the leave of the House, toconsider article 148. Therefore, I believe that the CentralGovernment will take steps to issue instructions toProvincial Governments to prepare these lists and alsodelimit constituencies early with a view to have theelections early next year.

I support the formal amendments moved by my Friend Dr.Ambedkar and oppose the amendments moved by Mr. Karimuddinand Mr. Baig and also by Prof. Shah.

The Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Mr. Vice-President,Sir, I accept the amendments Nos. 1417, 1426, 1431 of Prof.Shah, 1434 as amended by the mover of that amendment and asamended by the amendment No. 42 of List II and No. 43 ofList II. Of the other amendments, on a careful examination,I find that there is only one amendment on which I needafter any reply. That is amendment No. 1415 of my Friend Mr.Karimuddin. His amendment aims at prescribing that theelection to the House of the People in the various Statesshall be in accordance with the proportional representationby single transferable vote. Now, I do not think it ispossible to accept this amendment, because, so far as I amable to judge the merits of the system of proportionalrepresentation, in the light of the circumstances as theyexist in this country, I think, that amendment cannot beaccepted. My Friend Mr. Karimuddin will. I think, accept theproposition that proportional representation presupposesliteracy on a large scale. In fact it presupposes that everyvoter shall be literate, at least to the extent of being ina position to know the numericals, and to be in a positionto mark them on a ballot paper. I think, having regard to the extent of literacy in this country, such apresupposition would be utterly extravagant. I have not theleast doubt on that point. Our literacy is the smallest, Ibelieve, in the world, and it would be quite impossible toimpose upon an illiterate mass of voters a system ofelection which involves marking of ballot papers. That initself, would, I think, exclude the system of proportionalrepresentation.

The second thing to which I like to draw the attentionof the House is that at any rate, in my judgment,proportional representation is not suited to the form ofgovernment which this Constitution lays down. The form ofgovernment which this Constitution lays down is what isknown as the parlI amentary system of government, by which weunderstand that a government shall continue to be in officenot necessarily for the full term prescribed by law, namely,five years, but so long as the Government continues to havethe confidence of the majority of the House. Obviously itmeans that in the House where there is the parlI amentary system of Government, youmust necessarily have a party which is in majority and whichis prepared to support the Government. Now, so far as I havebeen able to study the results of the systems ofparlI amentary or proportional representation, I think, itmight be said that one of the disadvantages of proportionalrepresentation is the fragmentation of the legislature intoa number of small groups. I think the House will know thatalthough the British ParlI ament appointed a Royal Commissionin the year 1910, for the purpose of considering whethertheir system of single-member constituency, with one man onevote, was better or whether the proportional representationsystem was better, it is, I think, a matter to beparticularly noted that ParlI ament was not prepared toaccept the recommendations of that Royal Commission. Thereason which was given for not accepting it was, in myjudgment, a very

sound reason, that proportionalrepresentation would not permit a stable government toremain in office, because ParlI ament would be so dividedinto so many small groups that every time anything happenedwhich displeased certain groups in ParlI ament, they would,on that occasion, withdraw their support from theGovernment, with the result that the Government losing thesupport of certain groups and units, would fall to pieces.Now, I have not the least doubt in my mind that whateverelse the future government provides for, whether it relievesthe people from the wants from which they are suffering nowor not, our future government must do one thing, namely, itmust maintain a stable government and maintain law andorder. (Hear, hear). I am therefore, very hesitant inaccepting any system of election which would damage thestability of government. I am therefore, on that account,not prepared to accept this arrangement.

There is a third consideration which I think, it isnecessary to bear in mind. In this country, for a longnumber of years, the people have been divided intomajorities and minorities. I am not going into the questionwhether this division of the people into majorities andminorities was natural, or whether it was an artificialthing, or something which was deliberately calculated andbrought about by somebody who was not friendly to theprogress of this country. Whatever that may be, the factremains that there have been these majorities and minoritiesin our country; and also that, at the initial stage whenthis Constituent Assembly met for the discussion of theprinciples on which the future constitution of the countryshould be based, there was an agreement arrived at betweenthe various minority communities and the majority communitywith regard to the system of representation. That agreementhas been a matter of give and take. The minorities who,prior to that meeting of the Constituent Assembly, had beenentrenched behind a system of separate electorates, wereprepared, or became prepared to give up that system, and themajority which believed that there ought to be no kind ofspecial reservation to any particular community permitted,or rather agreed that while they would not agree to separateelectorates, they would agree to a system of jointelectorates with reservation of seats. This agreementprovides for two things. It provides for a definite quota ofrepresentation to the various minorities, and it alsoprovides that such a quota shall be returned through jointelectorates. Now, my submission is this, that while it isstill open to this House to revise any part of the clausescontained in this Draft Constitution and while it is open tothis House to revise any agreement that has been arrived atbetwen the majority and the minority, this result ought notto be brought about either by surprise or by what I may calla side-wind. It had better be done directly and it seems tome that the proper procedure for effecting a change inarticles 292 and 293 would be to leave the matter to thewishes of the different minorities themselves. If anyparticular minority represented in this House said that it did not want anyreservation, then it would be open to the House to removethe name of that particular minority from the provisions ofarticle 292. If any particular minority preferred thatalthough it did not get a cent per cent deal, namely, didnot get a separate electorate, but that what it has got in the form of reservation of seats is better than havingnothing, them I think it would be just and proper that theminority should be permitted to retain what the ConstituentAssembly has already given to it.

Pandit Thakur Dass Bhargava: But there was no agreementabout reservation of seats among the communities and anumber of amendments were moved by several Members forseparate electorates and so on, but they were all voteddown. There was no agreement at all in regard to thesematters.

The Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I was only sayingthat it may be taken away, not by force, but by consent.That is my proposition, and therefore, I submit that

thisproportional representation is really taking away by theback-door what has already been granted to the minorities bythis agreement, because proportional representation will notgive to the minorities what they wanted, namely, a definitequota. It might give them a voice in the election of theirrepresentatives. Whether the minorities will be prepared togive up their quota system and prefer to have a mere voicein the election of their representatives, I submit infairness ought to be left to them. For these reasons, Sir, I am not prepared to accept the amendment of Mr. Karimuddin.

Mr. Vice-President: I shall now put the amendments, oneby one, to the vote of the House.

Shri H. J. Khandekar: On a point of information, Sir,may I ask Dr. Ambedkar, what about the preceding census? Hehas not said anything when he amended article 35 the otherday. About the preceding census, is he prepared to amend itby saying `the latest census'?

Mr. Vice-President: Mr. Khandekar may come to therostrum and speak.

The Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: I have accepted theamendment of Mr. Naziruddin Ahmad as amended by him and asamended by Shri Bhargava.

Mr. Vice-President: I shall now put the amendments tovote.

The question is:

"That in sub-clause (a) of clause (5) of article 67,the following words be deleted:--

"Subject to the provisions of articles 292 and 293 ofthis Constitution'; and the following words be added at theend:--

`in accordance with the system of proportionalrepresentation with multi-member constituencies by means ofcumulative vote'".

The amendment was negatived.

Mr. Vice-President: The question is:

"That in sub-clause (a) of clause (5) of article 67,for the words `not more than five hundred representatives of the people of the territories of the States directly chosenby the voters, the words `such members as shall, in theaggregate, secure one representative for every five hundredthousand of the population in all the constituent parts of the Union, whether States or territories directly governedby the Centre. All members of the People's House shall beelected directly by the votes of all adult citizens. Thevotes shall be cast in a secret ballot and voting shall beon the basis of Proportional Representation with SingleTransferable Vote' be substituted."

The amendment was negatived.

Mr. Vice-President: The question is:

"That in sub-clause (a) of clause (5) of article 67,for the words `representatives of the people of theterritories of the States directly chosen by the voters',the words `members directly elected by the voters in the States' be substituted."

The amendment was adopted.

Mr. Vice-President: The question is:

"That the following be added after the words `the States' in sub-clause (b) of clause (5) of article 67:--

`and Territories directly governed by the Centre'."

The amendment was negatived.

Mr. Vice-President: The question is:

"That in sub-clause (b) of clause (5) of article 67,the words `divided, grouped or' be deleted."

The amendment was negatived.

The Honourable Dr. B. R. Ambedkar: Amendment No. 1426for dropping the words of India may be put, Sir.

Mr. Vice-President: That comes later. I am putting theamendments to vote in the order in which they were moved.

The question is:

"That in sub-clause (b) of clause (5) of article, 67,after the word `constituencies'. the following be added:-

`so that each State being constituent part of theUnion or Territory governed directly by theCentre is a single constituency by itself ifits population is not less than a million;or grouped with such adjoining States orTerritories as together have a population ofnot less a million."

The amendment was negatived.

Mr. Vice-president: The question is:

"That in sub-clause (b) of clause (5) of article 67,after the word `constituencies a full stop be added, theword `and' following immediately be deleted and the word thebe printed with a capital "T".

The amendment was negatived.

Mr. Vice-Presidenmt: The question is:

"That in sub-clause (b) of

clause (5) of article 67,the words `of India' be deleted

The amendment was adopted.

Mr. Vice-President: The question is:

"That the proviso to sub clause (b) of clause (5) ofarticle 67 be deleted."

The amendment was adopted.

Mr. Voice-Presidemt: The question is:

"That with reference to amendment No. 1434 of the Listof Amendment in sub-clause (c) of clause (5) of article 67,for the words `members to be elected at any time for', thewords `representatives allotted to' be substituted."

The amendment was adopted.

Mr. Vice-President: I shall now put amendment No. 1434as modified by the mover himself to vote. Is it necessaryfor me to read out the amended amendment?

Honourable Members: No, Sir.

Mr. Vice-President: The Question is:

"That in sub-clause (c) of clause (5) of article 67,for the words `last preceding census`, the words `lastpreceding census of which the relevant figures have beenpublished' be substituted."

The amendment was adopted.

Mr. Vice-presidnt: The question is;

"That clause (7) of article 67 be omitted."

The amendment was negatived

Mr. Vice-President: The question is:

"That in clause (7) of article 67, for the word `may'the word `shall', for the word territories' the word `theterritories', and for the words `other than States' thewords `directly governed by the Centre on the same basis asin the case of States which are constituted parts of theunion' be substituted respectively

The amendment was adopted.

Mr. vice-president: The question is;

"That with reference to amendment No. 1450 of the Listof Amendments, after clause (8) of article 67, the followingnew proviso be inserted.

`Provided that such readjustment shall not affectrepresentation, be House of the People untilthe dissolution of the then existing House.

The amendment was adopted.

Mr. Vice-president: The question is

"That in clause (8) of article 67, after the word`readjusted' the words `on the basis of population' beadded."

The amendment was negatived

Mr. Vice-President: I shall now put the firstalternative inn amendments No. 1452 to the vote of the House.

The question is:

"That to article 67, the following new clause (10) beadded:-

`(10) The election to the House of the people shall bein accordance with the system of proportionalrepresentation by means of the single transferablevote."

The amendment was adopted.

Mr Vice-President; I shall now put article 67, asamended to the vote of the House,.

The question is:

"That article 67, as amended, stand part of the Constitution.

The motion was adopted.

Article 67, as amended, was added to the Constitution.

Mr. Vice-President: The house stands adjourned till 10A.M. Wednesday, the 5th January 1949.

The Assembly then adjourned till Ten of the Clock onWednesday, the 5th January 1949.