abusing. His will not succeed here. He is rolling up his sleeves.
(Interruptions)
SHRI NITISH KUMAR (Barh): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am on a point of order. (Interruptions)
SHRI RABI RAY (Kendra Pada): Mr. Buta Singh please take your seat. Please listen his point of order. (Interruptions)
[English]
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Kindly resume your seat.
(Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your point of order? Let us hear him.
59 Re. use of word "Bhangi" by the PM
(Interruptions)
SHRI BUTA SINGH: I am not yielding. (Interruptions)
THE MINISTER OF STATE OF THE MINISTRY OF STEEL (SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV): How can he say'sit down' when you are sitting in the Chair? (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Shri Vishwanathji has advanced his argument.
Mr. Buta Singh is also on his legs and he is also participating in the discussion. This is how you have committed a mistake. Have you no patience to hear him what he wants to say? Unless you hear him fully, how do you counteract if? I do not agree with it. You have not exercised your patience. When you get a chance you can counteract it with double the force. How does your getting up and speaking in between help you? It does not help your argument at all. Whosoever he may be my humble point is this is an august House of former Speakers, former Prime Ministers and various Speakers of various legislatures with rich experience. If we do not follow certain rules who else will follow it? Let us hear one by one whatever the arguments that are being advanced. You can counteract it. You have got a rich experience with you.
(Interruptions)
SHRI SRIBALLAVPANIGRAHI (Deogarh):There is no point of order during Zero Hour.(Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER:Zero Hour is not an absolutely free hour.
(Interruptions)
SHRI NITISH KUMAR: I am on a point of order.
60 Re. use of word "Bhangi" by the PM
(Interruptions)
DR. KARTIKESWAR PATRA (Balasore):Several times the Chair has given a ruling that there will be no point of order during Zero Hour.
(Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Kindly resume your seat.
(Interruptions)
[Translation]
SHRI NITISH KUMAR: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am on a point of order; but it is in regard to something other than what Shri Buta singhji has said. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, just now the hon. Minister Shri Jagdish Tytler was pointing towards the hon. Member Shri Madan Lal Khurana and speaking loudly that ... ** I heard clearly. It is utterly objectionable. He should withdraw his words. (Interruptions) [English]
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER:If that word is unparliamentary, we will expunge it.
[Translation]
SHRI RAJVEER SINGH (Aonla): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it won't do like this, the hon. Minister should first apologise or it.
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Sometimes it does.
[English]
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Now the word is expunged.
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 61 Re. use of word "Bhangi" by the PM
[Translation]
SHRI RAJVEER SINGH: The hon. Minister should first apologise for it.
[English]
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have expunged that word.
[Translation]
SHRI RAJVEER SINGH: How will the proceedings of the House run if the hon. Minister does not apologise for it. He will have to apologise., other wise the proceedings will not run. He should stand up and apologize (Interruptions)
SHRI RAM NAIK (Bombay North): How it would be if I say that he is ... ** ... Minister. (Interruptions)
[English]
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please do not resort to that language.
[Translation]
THE MINISTER OF PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD): Word is not an unparliamentary word. It is used in jokes. Don't enter into the politics of Delhi .... goes on. (Interruptions)
[English]
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: You want a ruling on the word..**.. The word is now held unparliamentary and is expunged from the proceedings to the House. (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: That also is removed. All unparliamentary words used
---------------------------------------------------------------------- -
62 Re. use of word "Bhangi" by the PM
with emotion, with a bit of anger are expunged.
(Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: When /Shri Buta Singh is on his legs, how can you interfere? There should be some norms followed. You please read the rules.
[Translations]
SHRI BUTA SINGH: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, my submission is that the context in which the hon. Prime Minister used the word ... is, as the former king of Manda already pointed out, not only poverty, but very disgraceful.
SHRI VISHWANATH PRATAP SINGH: He is distorting my name, I don't know whose name he is mentioning.
SHRI BUTA SINGH: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to inform the House that the cabinet of Shri Rajiv Gandhi introduced a bill to delete such derogatory words including the just mentioned words, in regard to the people of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. Had Raja Sahib been so concerned about the matter, he would have passed the Bill. He should at least now extend his co-operation in this regard. In all the documents or laws regarding the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes, such words...
SHRI VISHWANATH PRATAP SINGH: 'Raja Sahib' is an insulting word.
Please don't address me with such words.
SHRI BUTA SINGH: I respect you a lot.
SHRI JAGDISH TYTLER: Does it mean that should not call you Raja Sahib?
63 Re. use of word "Bhangi" by the PM
SHRI BUTA SINGH: It is a matter of love, I address you with these words just out of love.(Interrptions) One thing is there ...
(Interruptions)
No Harijan was allowed to wear a turbanr shoes while passing near the palace of the king of Manda; whoever dared to do so, was skinned alive. (Interruptions)
SHRI VISHWANATH PRATAP SINGH: I challenge him for making such remarks. It is a false charge. (Interruptions) He is misstating the facts.
SHRI BUTA SINGH: I would appeal to the hon. Minister of the Parliamentary Affairs to introduce the Bill in regard to the imposition of restrictions on the use of insulting words in regard to any class of the people in the constitution a positively by tomorrow.
The submission made by Shri Vishwanath Pratap Singhji about the insult ... (Interruptions)
[English]
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Let him complete his speech. (Interruptions) MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: You can speak afterwards. (Interruptions) MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have called Shri Sreenvasa Prasad. It is a vary urgent matter. (Interruptions)
[Translation]
SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: The hon. Prime Minister should come in the House and apologise; he has in sulted the people of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes while addressing the people from the comparts of Red Fort.
(Interruptions)
64 Re. use of word "Bhangi" by the PM
[English]
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Shri Khurana, you have been repeating this.
This is the third time you are demanding this. (Interruptions) MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Whatever you want to say, you have said; and the Government have heard it. (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: You please sit down now. (Interruptions) MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Shri Khandelwal, you have told this; you have told this tentimes. (Interruptions)
[Translation]
SHRI BUTA SINGH:... (Interruptions) I praise the setting up of National Commission for Safai Karamcharis for their upliftment and all the members of the House should congratulate the hon. Prime Minister for this ... (Interruptions)
[English]
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have called Shri Sreenivasa Prasad to speak. He is raising a very very important issue. Everyone of you is concerned about it.
(Interruptions)
[Translation]
SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: As the hon. Prime Minister is not coming to the House, therefore, we walk out ... (Interruptions)
65 Re. use of word "Bhangi" by the PM
13.07 hrs.
After that Shri Madan Lal Khurana and some other hon. Members walked out from the House.
(Interruptions)
[English]
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD: Sir, I will have to reply to what they have said.
(Interruptions)
[Translation]
SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES (Muzaffarpur):I raised the matter in the morning at about 11 O'Clock, but took my seat when Mr. Speaker insisted me to do so. Since then I have requested the speaker five times. I have moved an Adjournment Motion and it was necessary to move it in the early hours. I gave notice for Adjournment Motion at 9.30 A.M. This matter is being discussed in the House for the last two years...
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD: We want to decide the matter.
SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: It won't do.
[English]
Sir, I have requested the hon. Speaker five times today. it is a matter of utmost importance. It concerns the dignity of the House. It concerns the Prime Minister. It concerns a lot of issues which are at stake.
[Translation]
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, please listen to me first. I want to say something in regard to my Adjournment Motion.
66 Re. use of word "Bhangi" by the PM
[English]
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I think, I am violating the rule. It is true.
Your subject might have been taken up earlier. Now Mr. Paswan has been called. He is on his legs. The same subject was there. Immediately after that, you can have it. I think, that much understanding and adjustment is necessary in a democratic set-up.
(Interruptions)
SHRI ANBARASU ERA (Madras Central): No, Sir. How many times?
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I know you want to raise an issue pertaining to the death of a Superintendent of Police.
(Interruptions)
Kindly bear it. (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: You will have a chance.
[Translation]
SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN (Rosera): The issue just now raised by Shri V.P. Singh and Shri Buta singh is not an issue of party politics. They have rightly said that there were 104 officers belonging to Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Traibes. Shri Arvind Netam is present here. he is convener of the forum. I had given a Privilege Motion in this regard.
It is still pending with the hon. Speaker. I had given this Motion against the hon. Minister of Personnel, Shrimati Margaret Alva. she had said in the House that the Government had demoted 104 officers on the basis of Supreme Court orders. Today, Shri Buta singh has said that the Supreme Court has since clarified that it had not given any such orders and it was wrong to demote the officers after giving them promotion. The
67 Re. use of word "Bhangi" by the PM
Supreme Court has decided the issue and the hon. Minister said that the Government has done so on the basis of supreme Court verdict. Shri misled the House. I asked her whether she was saying so in the House after careful thinking. Otherwise, we would bring a Privilege Motion.
She said that she was saying so after careful thinking. Thereafter, we 106 Members of parliament met the hon. Prime Minister under the leadership of Shri Aravind Netam. it would have been better had the hon. Prime Minister said before going to court that the orders were wrong. But now it is a court verdict. Therefore, its credit does not go to the hon. Prime Minister. Now the matter is subjudice and we would like to express our thanks to the court. Mr. Deputy speaker, Sir, through you, I would like to say that the word ** has been used.
The Government does not show any respect. (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please conclude.
SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: Sir, I am just concluding.
[English]
SHRI ANANTRAO DESHMUKH (Washim): sir, I am on a point of order.
during the discussion in this House, you had said that Mr. V. P. Singh will speak and it would be responded by Mr. Buta Singh. Now, that is all over. Now, again you are repeating the same thing. If you could allow them, you should also allow us to speak on this issue. This is my point of order. (Interruptions)
SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: You can also speak. I have no objection.
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: What the hon. Member says is a very relevant point.
(nterruptions)
---------------------------------------------------------------------- --
** Expunged as ordered by the chair.
68 Re. use of word "Bhangi" by the PM
[Translation]
SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to say only one thing that the Hon. Prime Minister of India used ... word from the rampart of the Red fort and whatever Shri Buta Singh has said is not correct. He said that the Hon. Prime Minister used the word ...
Mukti. I can play the tape of the Hon. Prime Minister's speech before you. He did not use this word with reference to 'Bhangi Mukti'. This word is disgraceful for a particular caste and the Hon. Prime Minister should beg apology for it. Today, 50,000 youth are sitting at the Boat Club and they would stage a demonstration at the Prime Minister's residence and would court arrest. The Hon. Prime Minister has no moral right to hold this post unless he begs aopology from them ...(Interruptions) He has no right to hold this office if he cannot visit Tsundur and Kumher..(Interruptions)
[English]
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD: Sir, what ever has been happening in this House in the last more than a month reminds me of a story which I read in sixth class which is about a wolf and a lamb. The wolf wanted to find fault with the lamb. So, the wolf said to the lamb, "why are you making my water muddy?"the lamb said", Sir, the water is flowing from you to me and not from me to you. How can I make your water muddy?" Then the wolf said, "OK. You abused me last year." The lamb replied," I was not born last year." then the wolf said," OK. it must have been your brother." The lamb answered, "I do not have any brother." Again the wolf said," Then he must have been one of your relations." then he pounced on the lamb. Sir, this is what has been happening in this House for the last one and a half months. (Interruptions)
69 Re. use of word "Bhangi" by the PM
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKR: Have patience and hear. He is not referring to any of you here.
(Interruptions)
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD: Sir, my distinguished and honorable
friends on the other side had the impression that this is a minority Government and will not last for more than six months or one year.
But, inspite of their best efforts, we have last more than one year ..
(Interruptions)..You can say anything under the umbrella. But we cannot say like that. Inspite of their best efforts, we have last on the floor of the House, so far as the no-confidence motion is concerned. Now, they are trying to find fault with us in one way or the other.
The first few days were sacrificed in the name of bank scam and the Government and no less a person than the Prime Minister came forward for JPC. Then the Ayodhya issue was raised. I must congratulate the Prime Minister on this. This Government took very positive steps and without any bloodshed in the country, we could solve the Ayodhya issue to a great extent; and I am sure that this Government will find a permanent solution too. After this issue is solved, our friends on the other side halted the proceedings of the House for the last three days. they did not want the House to function, in the name of a split, which was there internal matter and with which, the Congress Party has got nothing to do. Still, the House was not allowed to work. When this issue is also being solved, they have come up with one more issue. In the morning, we had a meeting with the leaders of different Opposition Parties with regard to the language issue. After that meeting, I thought there was no need of discussing it again here. In that meeting, we had assured that we would come before the House the next day. when this issue too was solved, they are now trying to find fault with the speech of Prime Minis-
70 Re. use of word "Bhangi" by the PM
ter. Whatever has been said in this House with regard to the speech of the Prime Minister is a total distortion of facts and they are saying all these things just to politicize what the Prime Minister has said.
The Prime Minister has said that he is very keen about the development of our Dalit friends. Whatever be the name, you should see the purpose behind the speech. He wanted to help the Dalit community. But most of our friends do not want these things coming from the Prime Minister to go record because they feel that this is their monarchy or their domain into which the Prime Minister is entering. They feel that they should not allow it to happen. This is exactly the wolf and the lamb story. They want to find fault, with the Government one way or the other just to defame and just to malign the Government. Sir, this is my submission.
SHRI V. SREENIVASA PRASAD (Chamarajanagar): I would like to draw the attention of the Home Minister to the very unfortunate and ghastly incident that took place in my constituency. Sir, I am referring to the gruesome gunning down of policemen including the Superintendent of Police, Mysore District, by the sandalwood smuggler and ivory poacher, Veerappan. He has once again established the fact that the Karnataka and Tamil Nadu police are illequipped to tackle the dreaded decoit.
Sir, the police operation against Veerappan has resulted in killings of dozens of police and forest department personnel without, in any way, diminishing the illegal trade in sandalwood ivory. Veerappan and his gang are lording over this terrorist stricken area. I urge the Union Home Minister to make anti-smuggling drive an operation of the Central Government. An effective strategy must be formulated and effectively executed by a crack team of the Armed Forces. To leave the matter in the hands of Karnataka police may result in a number of deaths and it may further demoralise the State police and create outrage among the local people. The
71 Re. use of word "Bhangi" by the PM
Government of Karnataka has also requested the Central Government to send Armed forces to nab the notorious poacher Veerappan. As a Member representing this particular constituency, I am deeply concerned about it. I demand that the Central Government should provide vital inputs that are needed to end this Veerappan menace. The hon. Minister has given an assurance in the other House. Therefore, I request the Central Government and the Home Minister to assure us categorically in this regard.