[English]

MR. SPEAKER: That word will not go on record.

[Translation]

SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: When we refer to Mandal Commission we do not mean Hindus, rather we mean Scheduled Castes, Scheduled Tribes, Backward Classes and the poor. I would submit to the Government also that if it has that much courage, it should bring about an amendment to provide 10 percent reservation to the economically backward sections among upper castes. Why does it not do so? They were making so much hue and cry at that time and were abusing ius. We would support if they bring such a Constitutional Amendment Bill. Whereas they oppose everything including Mandal Commission, poor people amongst Hindus etc.. (Interruptions) that is why I have

--------------------------------------------------------------------- 580 Motion of No-Confidence in the Council of Ministers

said that the incident that just took place....

DEFENCE MINISTER SHRI SHARAD PAWAR: As long as Kesri ji is there, you should not worry.

SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: Why do you rely on what Shri Kesri

submits. So far as he is concerned, whenever the Parliament session begins, he assures that an amendment will be brought in the House with a view to fill up the vacancies reserved for Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes.... (Interruptions)....Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would bring a privilege Motion against him in spite of the fact that he is my friend. Because he never fulfils his promise of bringing about a Constitution Amendment Bill.

I would like to point out two things in view of the incident that just took place. Firstly, it is the high tune to constitute Anti Communal Riots Force and it hardly matters that reservation is provide to minorities, Scheduled Castes or Scheduled Tribes in that force but representation to every section must be given. Otherwise, the situation in Uttar Pradesh is an example where minorities are scared by the name of PAC. About 90 or 85 percent of the total persons killed there have been killed in police firiing. Therefore, now is the time that Anti Communal Riots force should be set up and representation to the people of every religion be given in it.

Secondly, an announcement made by the Government of India and the Hon. Prime Minister says that a Commission will be constituted. My submission is that the Commission should be at the national level - National Inquiry Committee / Commission and it should clearly spell out the extent to which not only Uttar Pradesh Government but also the Government of India fulfilled its responsibility.

Our colleagues talked of cassettes. I have seen a cassette and it gives me an effect - please don't mind I express my feelings that we should neither remain neutral

---------------------------------------------------------------------- 581 Motion of No Confidence in the Council of Ministers

nor absent, rather we should vote against you. There is no example in the history of India of the misdead you committed. The way 500 persons took law into their hands and demolished the structure and tattered the constituttion. But I would not like the name of our party to be linked with B.J. P. We shall cross the bridge when it falls. That time is iexpected very soon. JPC report is about to be submitted. It will be presented in the next Parliament sesion. You said that we dismissed the Government of Uttar Pradesh..... (Interruotions)....

I had said that I would take only 15 minutes. I will conclude exactly at 3 P.M. I started a quarter to three, I am watchingthe clock.

Hon. Defence Minister, you dismissed the Government of Uttar Pradesh. But this incident reminds us of a story. A thief was detected while stealing the things. He thought that people would punish him. So he committed suicide by taking poison. Then police came, and claimed that they have apprehended the cirminal and started firing bullets at him and make it a case of encounter killing. Kalyan Singh resigned at 3 P.M. and at 6 P.M. you started making fiery remarks against him.

Everybody knows that Central Force orthe administration was not there till mid night. Somnath Babu, sitting here, knows it.

New laws are being enacted everyday. Ban is imposed sometimes on RSS, sometimes on Bajrang Dal, one or the other Government is dismissed on one ground or the other. I would like to quote another example. A thief was detected while making theft. People gave him three options either to bear 25 lashes at his back or eat 25 onions orpay a fine of Rs. 25/-. He agreed to eat 25 onions. But when he finished 10-12 onions. he offered to have 25 lashes at his back and when he had 10-12 lashes....

MR. SPEAKER: Paswan Ji, there is no time for such stories.

SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: I am just concluding. After that he off ered to pay fine

582 Motion of No Confidence in the Council of Ministers

of Rs. 25/-. My submission is ithat the government accepted all the three punishments. We finished just by paying the fine. But you are going to do these three things. Therefore Mr. Speaker, Sir, that day in your presence I had asked Mr. Jaswant Singh of B.J.P. that how they will control the situation. Which Sansad, do you consider greater, this Sansad orthe Dharam Sansad. We have this debate of 3rd December in which the Home Minister had asked not to make any presumptions, nothing would go wrong, we would not disclose our strategy but we would protect the constitution. But Mr. Speaker, Sir, today the Constitution has lost its value. The journalists were beaten.

Therefore, today also I insist that this is not an issue of Mandir and Mosque. Our colleague was talking of Muslim India. That day Atal Ji had said that if you ask for Muslim India then why not a Hindu India.

But if you ask for a Hindu India then some others will ask for Khalistan. If you raise slogans in favour of Hindu Nation, others will also raise slogans favouring some other nation. If you start your politics for mandirs,then others will do the same from Gurdwaras. Mr.

Speaker, Sir, you will have to give attention towards the basic problem. There was an incident at Chandur, at other places also, people belonging to Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes are being killed, the poor are being killed, you were praising the Rajasthan Government where 25 people.... (Interruptions)

AN HON. MEMBR : In Bihar.

SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: There is nothing in Bihar.At least 25-50 persons were killed in Kumher but no action was taken, I therefore say that you may raise a slogan in favour of a hindu nation but at the same time you also think that what will happen to the poor people in that Hindu Nation. In this House, I at least want to appreciate the gesture shown by the Government of Pakistan by criticizing the demolition of temple there and at the same time to reconstruct those temples with the Government's assistance as well as giving compensation for ithe loss of the human life. But I ask what is the cause of all of this? Unless you clean

583 Motion of No-Confidence in the Council of Ministers

[Sh. Ram Vilas Paswan]

a drain, the mosqutroes would go on increasing their population. You took a step without considering the reaction of it in the foreign countries. U.K. and U.S.A are not Muslim countries. Today temple, Gurudwaras and Mosques are being demolished in England also. Who is responsible for it? You are responsible for it.

Mr. Speaker, Sir therefore, we would like to say onething. The Congress Government will also have to make its policy clear.

Jayalalita openly declares support to B.J.P. but you say that she is supporting you. Mr. Pawar, Shiv Sena iopenly killed the people in Hospitals. In a Bombay Hospital, Shiv Sena..... (Interruptions) SHRI MOHAN RAWALE (Bombay- South Central): No such incident took place .... (Interruptions)

SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: You are not even speaking a word against Shiv Sena. You will have to make your intentions clear then only you can talk about secularism and just now you said that on mentioning an M.P.'s name he got angry. Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is a photograph which was taken after the demolition of the structure and one M.P. was dancing in the joy and saying that you have done a wonderful job, I do not want to mention him name. (Interruptions) You may go through'India-today'. I will not read out all that what is wirtten in it but I will definetly say about the photograph. I would like to tell the Government that if you have a clear intention and you want to come along with the secularist forces then you must make clear your image. Today, you do not have ithe secularist image. You have become a communal. Therefore, you must clear your intentions. B.J.P. is guilty but Bajrang Dal and V.H.P. had expressed all that what has happened,B.J.P. was riding on a lion, which apparently killed them, the leader of the opposition as well as the Chief Minister of their Government. The Central Government will have to make its intention clear. Therefore, the Janta Dal as well as the Rastitriya Morcha consider both of you guilty for this. We are neither voting in 584 Motion of No-Confidence in the Council of Ministers

their favour nor supporting you, therefore the Janta Dal will remain absent and work in order to expose both of you before the people of the country. We will judge you later on through your deeds (Interruptions) .... With these words I thank you

15.00 hrs.

SHRI RAJESH PILOT: In 1989, 86 memebrs were elected with your support... (Interruptions) 86 were elected in 89 with your suport (Interruptions)

SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: We did not let them demolish the Mosque.

MINISTER OF WELFARE (SITARAM KESRI): Mr. Speaker Sir

SHRI NITISH KUMAR:Youdid not listen to our speech therefore we will also not hear you... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: As time is very short, so do not disturb him. He is going to finish his speech within 10-15 minutes. He would take up all aspects.

(Interruptions)

SHRI SITARAM KESRI: Mr. Speaker, Sir today my head hangs down in National shame. Today is a black day and a day of National shame and there is no question of allegations and counter allegations. First of all I will take up the issue raised by Shri Vajpayee who has asked the minorities to excuse and to show generosity. Atal Bihari ji is a scholar, an intellectual and a wise persons. Till date, I have not heard like expecting generosity from the weak and poor. I am an uneducated person. Never went to a school or a college but I have always seen that it is the stronger one who shows generosity towards the weak not like the other way. But Atalji said iin his speech that day, which I was listening attentively that the Minorities should show generosity and give the Mosque to the majority people. While listening this I was feeling ashamed that an intelligent and scholar like him, 585 Motion of No-Confidence in the Council of Ministers

belonging to the majority community which has been a custodian of the society expects generosity from the minorities. It is for you to show generosity. You should say that you may construct a number of Mosques but you did not say like that.

Secondly, he said that he was sorry for this. While saying sorry, it also shows one's repentance, which means that he has accepted his fault and ready to pay any penalty for it.But in this case his sorry was a cover for his violent intentions. It happened in the past and the same is being repeated at present. If you have done something wrong then you should be prepared to pay penalty for the same but no he will not do this.

Thirdly, I would like to make a request with folded hands to Shri Ram Vilas ji, Shri Vishwanath ji that the country is reeling under the crisis and there is no question whether it is due to you or us you are also guilty as it has risen from the womb of the Non-Congressism. Had you and Mulayam Singh ji been united then the Mosque would not have been demolished. Therefore, do not consider yourself innocent. Paswan ji I always asked you to be united but it does not mean that I am not guilty.

I would like to point out one thing more. They took away the national slogan "Vande Matram"from us. Similarly, Shri V.P. Singh, Shri Arjun Singh and others also say that they did not consider Mahatma Gandhi as "The Father of the Nation". Why should they consider him so? did they take part in the freedom-struggle? they did not.

therefore, why should they bother to co nsider Mahatma Gandhi as "the father of the Nation"? They have nothing to do with the freedom struggle. They have no thingto do with the swaraj, secularism, nationalism or the unity of the country. Do they want to take revenge from the man who invaded india with 12000 soldiers and fought with Rana Sanga. He invaded at the age of 40 or 42 and when after getting defeatedhe was returning he wanted to know why smoke was emanating from all around there. He was told that there were many castes in the Hindu religion and they all had

586 Motion of No Confidence in the Council of Ministers

separate kitchen.that is why today there are 10 crore Muslims here because many castes were expelled from Hindu religion. Such a* religion having thousands of gods and goddesses is bound to be in such a crisis.

I would like to tell you one more point. (Interruptions) SHRI SATYA DEOSINGH (Balrampur): Mr.Speaker,Sir,I am on apoint of order.The hon. Minister is levelling allegations on the religion. He is calling religion * (Interruptions)

[English]

MR. SPEAKER: This is point of order. I will hear him; I will allow him to speak. under what rule or provision are you raising it?

(Interruptions)

[Translation]

SHRI SATYA DEO SINGH: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the hon. Minister is calling religion (Interruptions)

[English]

MR. SPEAKER:Yes,continueMr. Kesri.

(Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: That will not go on record.

(Interruptions)

[Translation]

SHRI SITARAM KESRI: An article of Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee appeared in the "Hindustan"in which it was said that Hinduism was no a religion but it was a culture. Therefore,hon.colleagues,please understnd it there is not only one deity in the religion, there are thousands of deities here (Interruptions)

Please listen, I am pointing out one thing. I am saying it to them and to my party

587 Motion of No-Confidence in the Council of Ministers

[Sh. Sita Ram Kesri]

colleagues also. They say that they want to construct the Ram Mandir.

I have never been in favour of constructing any RamMandir, Masjid or Gurudwara. I have discussed it in my party also. I am taking their side because the Masjid has been demolished, and therefore it should be reconstructed otherwise, I was never in this favour. I am frank in this matter. It is not the duty of the government to construct a temple, mosque, gurudwara or a church, rather, the duty o fthe Government is to protect them.

What did they do. By Sri Rama they mean the King Rama only and not the Rama who was banished to the forest. They started their Rath Yatra in the name of King Rama. The King Rama rode the chariot and similarly they rode the Rath (chariot) But unfortunately their Rath Yatra symbolised deceit and treachery and that is why it was intercepted by shri Laloo Prasad Yadav in Bihar. I appreciate ShriYadav.The RathYatra should have been stopped earlier. Hhad it been stopped in the beginning we would not have witnessed the ugly face of Rama and the mandir-masjid issue woruld not have been blown out of proport on. Therefore, I always say that there are ideological diffrences and not only political differences. It was in 1952, that Shri Prabhu Dutt Brahmachari came out in ithe open and fought with Jawahar Lal Nehru on the ideological plane. Now the Congress and you have to decide whether this is ithe country of Jawahar Lal Nehru or that of Prabhu Dutt Brahmachyari. The second thing to be decided is whether the countrywill be run on the ideology of Gandhi Ji or those of Nathuram Godse who shot Gandhiji dead on January 30, 1948. Godse was not merely a person, he symbolised an idea. Therefore, this shouldbe stopped. I tell you that your party is not strong enough to fight these things. The party is splitted. It should be united. But it should not try to disintegrate us. Our unity should not be disturbed.

We will settle this problem with them. But they cannot. This is the product of non-Congressim and our weaknesses.I would like to point out one thing more. Their

588 Motion of No-Confidence in the Council of Ministers

Ram is illusive and their Ram is a trader, it is not wirtten in any religion..... (Interruptions)

SHRI RAM NAGINA MISHRA (Padrauna):Mr.speaker,Sir,I am on apoint or order....

MR. SPEAKER: I would not like to listen to such points of order frequently. First tell me under which rule? Which rule has been violated here? (Interruptions)

SHRI SITARAM KESRI: One who has betrayed has no right to take the name of Lord Rama.

SHRI RAM NAGINA MISHRA: Sir, he is calling Lord Rama atrader.

Rama is an ideal. He should mind his language.... (Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: First you please sit down. You heednot speak so much. We do not have so much time. there is no point of order here.

SHRI RAM NAGINA MISHRA: We too shall refer to other religions in our speech.... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Please understand what he means to say. It is no use arguing without reason.

SHRI SITARAM KESRI: Ours is "Hey Ram" and yours is "Shri ram".

Ours is Gandhis' Rama and not that of Godse's Rama.....

(Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Shri Kesri, please conclude within five minutes.

There are a number of persons to speak on this issue.

SHRI SITARAM KESRI: Mr. Speaker, Sir, why did they choose the date December, 6? I would like to tell you one thing. It was the death anniversary of late Shri Ambedkar. Shri Ambedkar disowned the Hindu religion and owned Buddism because the Scheduled Castes and weaker sections of society were being negleted by Hindu religion. Therefore, he accepted Buddhism. He was a man of the stature who was the rechitect of our

589 Motion of No-Confidence in the Council of Ministers

Constitution and they have committed such a misdeed on his death anniversary day only to show that religion in the name of Lord Rama is supreme. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am, therefore, constrained to say that it is not only a matter of shame for the country, but we doubt whether this country can remain united. I also doubt whether this House can remain intact. I would like to submit to all hon. members that the B.J.P. has double standards. On the one hand, they beg apology and seek atonoment for the sensitiveness of the country and on the other hand, they attack the place of worship. Just as five hundred years back.... (Interruptions) I would like to submit only this much that attempt is made to create a "sense of victory" among them. with ithese words, I would like to say that this No-confidence motion is not based on facts, it is meaningless**


[NEXT PAGE]