Over Rs.2,00,000 crore of outlay earmarked under the Special Component Plan for the Scheduled Castes was not actually used for their benefit during the Eighth Five Year Plan. Similarly about Rs. 2,20,000 crore earmarked under Tribal Sub-Plan during the Eighth Plan period were not utilised for the benefit of the Scheduled Tribes. We have spent fifty years with slogans and slogans. I do not want to proceed further. I think the Ninth Five Year Plan document itself gives a lot of messages. If Rs. 2,00,000 crore had been spent for the Scheduled Castes ...(Interruptions)

DR. M.P. JAISWAL (BETTIAH): Who was in the Government at that time? ...(Interruptions)

SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA : It was about Eighth Five Year Plan. For your information, we were not in the Government during the Eighth Five Year Plan. I am talking about the Eighth Five Year Plan. We were not there. ...(Interruptions) I am not saying we did not make a mistake. If you look at the Seventh Five Year Plan perhaps the situation is the same. If you look at the Sixth Five Year Plan perhaps the situation is the same. ...(Interruptions)

DR. NEETISH SENGUPTA (CONTAI): No, you were very much in power during the Seventh Plan. It was a successful Plan. ...(Interruptions)

SHRI SHARAD PAWAR (BARAMATI): You were Secretary of the Planning Commission at that time. You have forgotten it. ...(Interruptions)

SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA : Sir, much has been said about Kargil. I know that the time allotted to me is very limited. I will complete in five minutes. Much has been said about Kargil. I am not going to speak about it. I endorse what Shri Indrajit Gupta has said. I understand that a Committee - Subrahmanyam Committee - has been formed to go into all aspects of the Kargil war, our failures here and there. I request the Government to make available the Subrahmayam Committee report to us and it can be discussed. During the debate on Pokhran-II, I advocated for a nuclear doctrine. At that time the ruling Party Members were smiling at me and laughing at me. I am happy that the Government has now come out with a draft nuclear doctrine. The Nationalist Congress Party has, in our manifesto, gone a step further to say that why only a nuclear doctrine, we should have a National Security Doctrine itself. I would like the Government to place the draft nuclear doctrine on the table of the House and, perhaps, we can have time to discuss about it.

Shri Somnath Chatterjee has made a reference to the C.T.B.T. Shri Indrajit Gupta has made a reference to tomorrow's W.T.O. meeting. I am not going to say all sorts of things. On C.T.B.T. I think we should take note of two happenings. The President of the United States, Mr. Bill Clinton was the first to sign the C.T.B.T. But then he could not get his proposal ratified by the Congress there. That is one aspect. The second aspect that we have to keep in mind is the termination of the democratic government in our neighbourhood, Pakistan. Keeping these two developments, I would urge upon the Government to be extra cautious regarding our stand on C.T.B.T.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, I would like to make two more points. They are very important. One is on the North-East. I am very disappointed to note that the President's Address simply says that : "We are going to restructure the North-East Council". That is all the President's Address has said and nothing more or nothing else. I do not want to emphasise what we have been doing in the past. But I think the North-East certainly requires much more attention from the Government than simply making a statement that they are going to restructure the North-East Council.

The last point I would like to make a reference to the President's Address to is the writings of the Father of the Nation, Mahatma Gandhi in 1931. He described the India of his dreams as India in which all communities shall live in perfect harmony. That was the dream of Mahatma Gandhi. This is what we have been cherishing. We are a secular country. We all want to live in perfect communal harmony. I am pointing out this because these days we find a lot of news coming about the reservation from certain sections of the people on the visit of the Pope to India.

I do not see any reason why we should have any objection to the Holy Father visiting India. I want to point out that this is not going to be the first visit of the Holy Father here. It is going to be the second visit. The first visit was a much more longer visit. He travelled throughout India, and visited all the important towns and cities of India. At that time, nobody raised any finger. There was no demonstration. There was no Press Statement. There was no yatra held. Why is all this happening at the time of his second visit? It is because, I think, they are getting some strength from somewhere to take up such activity. Please ensure that the visit is a success and peaceful.

I belong to Christian community and I can tell you that we are a very timid community. We are just two per cent of the population after 2000 years of Christianity in this great country. Where is the room for apprehension? I do not understand. We have made our contribution to this country in every possible way, especially in the field of education and in the field of medical care. I think a large number of Members here, I am sure, are product of Christian institutions. We have done our bit.

I also want to point out that this is not a religious affair only. The Holy Father is not only the head of a religious organisation, but also the head of a Government, head of a sovereign State. So, he is coming here not merely as the head of the Church but also as the head of a State. I think, if anything that is unpleasant happens, it will have an impact on our diplomatic relations, our external affairs and our foreign policy. I urge upon the Government to ensure that everything goes off peacefully. I am speaking this on behalf of the Christian community of this country because I must confess that we are not only hurt but also really distressed about this.

Thank you very much.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Yashwant Sinha.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI SIMRANJIT SINGH MANN (SANGRUR): Sir, I am a Sikh. There is no Sikh representative in the Union Cabinet and incidentally no Sikh is being allowed to speak.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: You will get your opportunity. Why are you agitating?

SHRI J. S. BRAR (FARIDKOT): Sir, it is the feeling of the House that this House should be extended or the Motion of Thanks on the President's Address should be carried on to the next Session. There are many Members who think alike. On the very first day, the hon. Speaker had stated in his speech that the back-benchers would be given the opportunity to speak. There are at least 50 people who want to speak on the Motion of Thanks on the President's Address. We request you that either this should be carried on to the next Session or we must sit late till 11 o'clock so that the Members who want to speak can get an opportunity. ...(Interruptions)

SHRI PAWAN KUMAR BANSAL (CHANDIGARH): Sir, this Motion may be carried on to the next Session. This is the first document of the new Government and I am sure that the Members want to participate in this discussion meaningfully.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI J. S. BRAR : Hon. Deputy-Speaker Sir, you have been so good ....(Interruptions) There are ten Members from Punjab and not even one has spoken. ....(Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I tell you that as per the time allotted, all the parties have exhausted their time.

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: If here and there, few Members are there, we can accommodate them. Then, the hon. Minister will give the reply. There is no question of postponement.

......(Interruptions)

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|ɦxl ʺƽ: ɨɪ E {` {gx E ʱB E M ? ... (ɴvx)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Let me hear Shri Madhav Rao Scindia, the Deputy Leader of the Congress Party.

SHRI MADHAV RAO SCINDIA : I think, the sentiments of the House have been adequately expressed, and a number of speakers, since they are all new Members, would like to speak. I think, it will be also very useful to hear their views. Maybe, the Government could consider whether we could sit tomorrow also so that all the Members would get an opportunity to speak.

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MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: A suggestion has come from the Deputy Leader. Now, let me hear the hon. Home Minister.

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MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The sitting of the House is not dependent on your train or air travel bookings.

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MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Almost all parties have exhausted the time allotted to them. The hon. Home Minister is now trying to say something. Why do you not hear him patiently? All of us are interested to see that some new Members are accommodated. We can extend the sitting for some more time, and then complete it amicably.

THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI L.K. ADVANI): We have conveyed to the hon. Speaker last evening itself that so far as the Government is concerned, it is prepared for all alternatives, namely, to sit late today, to sit on Saturday, to sit on Monday, but we are keen that the Motion of Thanks should not be put off, and it should be completed. This was the basic contention that we made to the Speaker. The hon. Speaker conveyed to us that we should sit late today, but we should not extend the Session. ... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Let him complete, do not interrupt him.

SHRI L.K. ADVANI: We also pointed out to him that many Members of the House wanted to go by evening flight today. So, we left it to the Speaker, and he ultimately conveyed to us that we should not extend the House and that it should be completed today. Now, it is for you to decide.

SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR : I just want to reiterate what I had pointed out yesterday that in 1994, the Members of the Treasury Benches, who were then on the Opposition, stalled the discussion on the Motion of Thanks for several weeks, though there was no problem in eventually passing the Motion of Thanks. So, given the fact that they treated us this way, we love to treat them in a similar way.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: There need not be any retaliation.

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I am on my legs, will you kindly resume your seat?

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The hon. Home Minister has already given a suggestion. I think, some more Members wanted to participate in this debate. So, we can extend the time by a few more hours and complete it today itself and not tomorrow or Monday. Let us take the sense of the House on extending the time. Most of the time allotted to each party has already been exhausted.

I would like to inform the Members that almost all parties have exhausted their time.

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Some new Members who want to participate in the debate, let them participate and the time of the reply could be postponed by an hour or two and then we can complete this discussion.

... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Now, let me take the sense of the House.

SHRI SHARAD PAWAR : When would be the reply by the hon. Home Minister? ... (Interruptions)

SHRI PRIYA RANJAN DASMUNSHI : Sir, I would like to draw your attention in the light of the suggestion that has been made by you. I would like to know from the hon. Minister of Parliamentary Affairs the exact time to be extended after six o'clock so that the exact time could be finalised just now. It would help us in planning which party would be accommodated and in what manner. If there is any uncertainty about the time, then we would not know as to when the debate would end and when Advaniji would reply.

I would like to know from the Minister of Parliamentary Affairs whether he has any proposal to make in this regard so that we could plan and collectively take a decision ... (Interruptions)

THE MINISTER OF PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS AND MINISTER OF WATER RESOURCES (SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN): Let the Chair decide the time of the reply and divide the time accordingly amongst the parties ... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I would like to inform the House that two to three parties which have not participated in the debate will have to be allotted time. Parties like the BSP, the AIADMK and some single-membered parties would have to be given time to participate in the debate.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI PRIYA RANJAN KUMAR DASMUNSHI :What will be the time of reply by the hon. Home Minister? ... (Interruptions)

SHRI PAWAN BANSAL : Please take it to the next Session ... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: No, it would not be taken to the next Session.

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SHRI PRIYA RANJAN DASMUNSHI : Sir, I fully support the proposal by the Minister of Parliamentary Affairs if you decide the timing of the reply by the hon. Home Minister just now ... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: My suggestion is that if the House desires to sit and hear the reply by the hon. Home Minister at 8 o'clock, then till that time we would have about three hours time.

... (Interruptions)

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MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please let me complete. You do not seem to allow me to talk.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI SUDIP BANDYOPADHYAY (CALCUTTA NORTH-WEST): Sir, what about the time of Trinamool Congress? ... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I would like to request the hon. Members that let us orderly conduct ourselves and see to it that the new Members and those Parties who have not been given time to participate in the debate could participate and the hon. Minister would reply at 8 o'clock. The Minister of Parliamentary Affairs and the Whips may kindly interact with each other in the matter.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN: Sir, only new Members should be allowed ... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: You can work that out.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN: Only new Members of the Thirteenth Lok Sabha should be allowed and not those who were Members of the Eleventh Lok Sabha and also are Members of this Lok Sabha ... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: You have to do it in the `give and take' spirit. You have to give that judgement. You please coordinate with the Whips of the other parties and then let me know.

In the meanwhile we will extend the sitting of the House upto 8 o'clock and the hon. Minister will reply at 8 o'clock.

Is it the sense of the House to extend the time of the House upto 8 o'clock?

SEVERAL HON. MEMBERS: Yes.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: The time of the House is extended upto 8 o'clock.

... (ɴvx)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I request the Minister of Parliamentary Affairs, Shri Mahajan, to kindly coordinate with the Whips of all parties in this regard.

SHRI SUDIP BANDYOPADHYAY : Sir, you have mentioned BSP and AIADMK but not Trinamool Congress.

MR. DPEUTY-SPEAKER: Yes, Trinamool Congress has also not got a chance to speak.

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MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I call now Shri Yashwant Sinha, the Minister of Finance to intervene.

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