M +nixl (MJ{֮) : Vɤ EҮ xn ic Vi i E ʽxn+ E ɴxB +ɽi xɽ i ?

... (ɴvx)

< i E ɮ-ɮ =`x E E iɱɤ ?

... (ɴvx)

ɽ Mɱi i *

ʶn + : 1948 {ɽ ɮ ɤɮ ʺVn iɱ M* g Sɮ ɱ Miɮ ɤɮ E Vɨx E 1948 iE = ɤɮ ʺVn E n-nҴɮ +--+Eɮ E +ɴV MVi * BE nx B xɽ MVɮ

... (ɴvx)

M +nixl : ɽ +i * ɤɮ BE +Fxi l*

... (ɴvx)

ɤɮ E ɽ nx ʽɨbi x E VB* =x xn ic E BE fS Jb E l* 6 nɨɮ 1992 E Mֱɨ E = EE E fɪ Mɪ l*

... (ɴvx)

V q +{x +{ nx SE l, =E {x: =`x E |ɪɺ * B Mi E < n {x: nM n Ex E Vɶ * ... (ɴvx)

MR. SPEAKER: No. Nothing will go on record.

(Interruptions) *

ʶn + : ɽ g Sɮ ɱ Miɮ <ni i * n x Mi Vɤ Jn E +xn bFʨxx E Vi + E Vi E ɽ

_____________________________________________________________________________

*Not Recorded.

Jn xx ɱ E VMɽ xɽ M, ɽ {ɮ nںɮ Jn E <ni M* Jn {ڮ nxɪ E BE Sɽ ɽ ʺVn xn *

... (ɴvx)

1948 V iɱ M l = 1986 Ү ɽn֮ ʺƽ V E ɮEɮ x J* =E n =iiɮ |n xɮɪh nii iɴɮ V E ɮEɮ l* iɤ ɽ ʶɱxɺ Eɪ Mɪ* =E n 1992 = ʺVn E ic n Mɪ*

... (ɴvx)

+{x i Ji E *

nڮnx + +ɱ <b b Miɮ =E b{]b fS Ei * Ex E ɮiҪ Vxi {] ɮEɮ x E xVɪV ɪn =` * =x iEn E Vɪ E ɤɮ ʺVn E ɡV <iɱ E Vɪ* <E l |Ҩ E] E ɽ +bǮ E "]] E" x Sʽ* Eɪn = VMɽ {ɮ ʺVn nɮ xɪ Vx Sʽ iɦ ]] E Ei *

{E ɽ, +Jɮ ɽ i EM E ix ʨxɺ] E Jɱɡ Fʨxɱ EW {bM , ɽ E ֨Ex E Vɺ +n E Jɱɡ Fʨxɱ E {bM , ɽ ʽxni E ʨxɺ] * "+E E nɴ, Ei E nM E {ɮ ɽ Eiɱ,ɽ ʽn,ɽ ʺɡ `," E <xɡ ʨɱM, Ex <xɡ nM? < |Eɮ Ehh Vx ʨ E SEE l Ex = ɨɪ ɮ xi E֨ɮ ɪɴi =iiɮ |n E Jɨj l Vɤ BE {ʮn x {ɮ xɽ ɮ* ɮ ɮEɮ E .V.{. {] E l ʡ ɽ ʺVn Vn * +{x i = =n E l Ji Ei E |vxɨj V E ʺɪi xɽ E ʨxɺ] E ] E EE .V.{. E +n b{] * Z =n E = =`x {ɽ-{ɽ +bh V <iҡ n nM*

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA (MIDNAPORE): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I did not anticipate that there would be a full-dress debate on this question, as it now appears. We were preparing ourselves for the Government's response to a very limited or restricted point, the question whether people who have been charge-sheeted for participating in the demolition of Babri Masjid are entitled or not entitled to continue as Ministers in this House, which has been agitating the House for the last two days.

You must have seen in the Press that this anniversary of the event has stirred up strong reactions and emotions not only in this House, in this country but in other countries also. There are reports of demonstrations and of people recalling what happened on that fateful day. It is not a matter which can be just left like that. This event took place on the 6th of December. Next day, on the 7th of December, everybody was very much agitated. We came to the House as usual. Unfortunately, I do not have the copies of the proceedings with me now, but I am sure it will not be contradicted. At that time Shri Vajpayee was not the Prime Minister because there was no BJP Government over which he could be the Prime Minister. He was an ordinary Member of the House, a Leader of his Party and was sitting quite close to us on this side. Shri Vajpayee was very much worked up, indignant, angry and agitated on that day. I remember him saying here in the House, `We do not know as to who has committed this deed. It has not been done on anybody's instructions. We have not ordered or asked anybody to behave like this.'

We do not know who these people are. We do not know why they have behaved like this. But, this is something which is very condemnable and disgraceful and whoever has done it should be brought to book. These were the words he used. They must be brought to book and they must be punished. These words were uttered by him, not by anyone of us. You can consult the record and see for

yourself. I remember it very clearly and distinctly here in this House. That is what he had said.

After the passing of so many years, in the mean time, Shri Vajpayee is now the Prime Minister of this country. His party is in power. But, after all this, now we find that instead of the perpetrators of this crime being brought to book, they are here now sitting in the seats of power. Shri Vajpayee is keeping quiet about it. He has not recalled what he himself said, how he reacted in this House on the 7th of December. He has not said a word. The country is therefore not at all enlightened as to what is the stand of the Government and the Prime Minister on this question.

All we had wanted here today was that this position must be clarified. As far as the technical or the legal side of it is concerned, I think the matter has been made quite clear from the records and what has been stated here on the basis of the court's findings. Now what remains is only one point; not which party did what. There is only one point to be decided. The people who have been named and against whom charge-sheets have been framed, whether they are going to be permitted to remain as ministers in the seats of power or they have to be removed from those seats of power. There is no other question now. Unless this matter is settled on the basis of justice and equity, I am afraid, the proceedings of this House will be disrupted.

I want to say one thing more. Continually they were saying at that

time and even now they are saying -

E ɽ i BE fS l* ɽ i ʺVn xɽ l* ɽ i ʺVn E V BE fS l* x = ɨɪ {U l E +Mɮ ɽ ʺVn x , <E +n +{ Ei l E = ɨɪ ɽ E< xɨW xɽ i l, ... (ɴvx)

E |ɺn Vɪɺɴɱ (ɮhɺ) : xɴɮ, =ɨ Mɴx E i l, {V l + +{ =E ʺVn Ei ? ɽ Mɴx E i l*

... (ɴvx)

<xpVi M{i : <ʱB x ɴɱ E + + {U * +Mɮ ɽ Eɱ fS l i =E icx E E Wɰi l? E ic =E? ... (ɴvx)

E |ɺn Vɪɺɴɱ : Ex =E ʺVn i i EʽB Vɺɨ ɨ E i E {V i *

... (ɴvx)

<xpVi M{i : fS l i =E ic E?

... (ɴvx)

Why did you demolish something which according to you was not a Masjid at all?

+vI ɽn : Vɪɺɴɱ V, +{ ` V<B*

E |ɺn Vɪɺɴɱ : Vɽ {V i , Vɽ P]-Pcɱ Vi , Vɺɨ M {V Ei =E ʺVn EM?

... (ɴvx)

ɺn +Sɪ (E֮) : i ʡ n E E ic? +Mɮ i l, ɨ E i l i E ic?

... (ɴvx)

E |ɺn Vɪɺɴɱ : +{ =E ʺVn xɽ E Ei*

... (ɴvx)

<xpVi M{i : ʺVn E fS l i E ic?

... (ɴvx)

Sir, there is no way out like this.

E |ɺn Vɪɺɴɱ : ɤɮ x Vɤ ic l, =E +{ +ɱSx Eʮ* +{ ɤɮ E +ɱSx i Ei xɽ *

... (ɴvx)

+vI ɽn : Vɪɺɴɱ V +{ ` V<B*

... (Interruptions)

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : Are we now going to discuss about Babar and what happened hundreds of years ago? If somebody had demolished a temple which is established, then certainly it has to be inquired into....(Interruptions)....Anyway, now the matter is that people are not concerned with what happened hundreds and thousands of years ago. Here is something going on. There is a modern State; a secular State is functioning here and an elected Parliament is in Session. This matter is under discussion and therefore, I stand by what the hon. Prime Minister said who, at that time, was not the Prime Minister. On the 7th December, he was not the Prime Minister. But he said something here which was completely true and correct. He showed his anger and indignation and said that people who have done this will have to be brought to book, hauled up and punished. He said it. It can be confirmed from the records. Therefore, I only want him to remain true and loyal to what he had said at that time. Even though much delay has taken place, justice has to be done and the secular credentials of this country have got to be defended and upheld.

|ɦxl ʺƽ (ɽɮVMV, ʤɽɮ) : +vI ɽn, ɽi ɨɪ x E ʱB l =` , E{ɪ Z x E <VVi nVB*

b. ʴVɪ E֨ɮ ɱj (nIh n) : +vI V, ֱɪɨ ʺƽ n V, {.+ɮ. nɺɨƶ V, S]V ɽ + <pVi M{i V x <x ɴɱ E ɽ =`ɪ , ɨZ ɽ i ʤɱEֱ xɽ +< E +V +SxE < ɴɱ E =`x E Vɰi E {c* {U Һ ɽx Vɤ ɽ ɮEɮ ii +< , E< x< P]x < , E< xɪ ɴɱ {n + i i ɽ ɴɱ =`x E i Ei l* + {.+ɮ.nɺɨƶ V, M{i V + S]V ɽ x 9.9.1997 E {ɱ Vɺ]] x +v E ɨɱ V +bǮ n , =E VF E E 9.9.1997 E =x ɽ +bǮ E l* 9.9.1997 E n +V EҤx ɴ n ɱ i + < ɮEɮ E x B MɦM 20 ɽx Mɪ * +bh V +V {ɽ ɮ j xɽ x , ֮ x V V +V {ɽ ɮ j xɽ x , = ɮi V +V 20 ɽx {ɽ j x l* E x ɽ ɴɱ = ɨɪ E xɽ =`ɪ? E x < ɴɱ E xɽ =`ɪ

... (ɴvx)

SHRI SATYAVRAT CHATURVEDI (KHAJURAHO): We are raising objection to this. To say that we did not utter a word is not correct.

b. ʴVɪ E֨ɮ ɱj : +bh V, V V + = ɮi V < ɴɱ E < =

... (ɴvx)

ɺn +Sɪ (E֮) : +{ = ɨɪ V ɦ l, iɤ ɽ ɴɱ =`ɪ Mɪ l*

b. ʴVɪ E֨ɮ ɱj : 9.9.1997 E n ɽ ɴɱ {U Vi , +{ɨ E x ɴɱ {U + +bh V x Vɴɤ n* = ɨɪ E x +VEx xɽ E* +{ ɴɱ {Ui , E = ɨɪ +{ i * ɽ Ex Sɽi E +bh V, V V + = ɮi V +{E x ɽ xɽ ` , V +{ E E n xɨɮ {ɮ ` B , <x < n E Vxi x SxE V + ɽ E ʺli {n < *

+vI ɽn, Vxx Sɽi E x< i E < ? x< i ɽ < E 20 ɽx ʽnֺix BE ʽxn-ʺɨ nM xɽ +, n E +n i

... (ɴvx)

+ V ʽn-ʺɨ nM {ɮ V Ei , V ʽn-ʺɨ nM {ɮ Vn

... (ɴvx)

iɵi Siִn : V nM Ei l +V ii *

b. ʴVɪ E֨ɮ ɱj : =x ɽ i +V S֦ , =x ɽ M E ɽ {ɮ ʽn-ʺɨ ɨ|nʪEi E x {n VB, <ʱB ɽ ɮ-ɮ < i E ɽ E * +vI ɽn, BE + i < E ij ɮi E <iɽɺ EO {ɽ ɮ 112 {ɮ ʺɨ] M< *

18.00 hrs.

+vI ɽn, ɤɺ E ] < ɮ EO E E ɦ |{i < * <ʱB < xɮɶ, iɶ + cJcɽ] =xx <x ɴɱ E Jc Ex ְ E * +{ɺ ɽ Ex Sɽi V + S]V ɽ + |ɪ Vx nɺɨƶ V x E E ɽ 1992 E P]x , <E] 1993 En nɪɮ E Mɪ l, =ɨ <ix n E , ɱ E xɽ +? =xE ix Sɽi E ɽ {ɮ xɽ l, ɮiҪ Vxi {] E ɮEɮ xɽ l ʱE {S ɱ +{E ɮEɮ * xɮʺƴ ɴ V |vx j l* =E n Mb V |vx j x, =E n MVɮɱ V |vx j x + +{ =xE ɮEɮ E ɨlx E l* E xɽ +{x = ɨɪ <x ɴɱ E Eɪ? +{ Ei E 50 ɱ En Sɱ + 50 ɱ En E xhǪ xɽ + - i ɽ Vɨnɮ EE l? E ɽ Vɨnɮ ɮ l? ɽ Vɨnɮ ɮ xɽ l* +{x ɽ ʤɱEֱ Mɱi + xɮlE i E * +{x ɽ E E < En E ɱ Ex E ʱB nJɱ E xɽ n* +{E ix Sɽi E ..+<. {ɮ = ɨɪ xɮʺƴ ɴ V x nɴ bɱ E BE ʤɱEֱ +i En nɪɮ Eɪ* Vɤ ɽ ʤɱEֱ Mɱi + +i En nɪɮ E Mɪ l, i E =xE < Vɱ ƺ Vi + = {ɮ EɮǴ< Ei?

+vI ɽn, < ɮEɮ x 20 ɽx < E E ʴnc Ex E ʱB ..+<. {ɮ E< nɴ xɽ bɱ * V |E] 1993 +{<] E Mɪ, ɽ +V Eɨ E * x i |E] xɽ n* x ..+<. {ɮ < E E bɪɱ] Ex i E< nɴ xɽ bɱ, Ex +{E ɨɪ VɤnǺi E E Mɱi iɮE xɴɪ Mɪ*

ֱɪɨ ʺƽ V x VF E E ɽ ɽ ɤ E |Eɮ +ɪ * ix Sɽi E Vɤ ɨ ɱ |E] B, = ɨɪ ʽxnֺix Ex |vx j l - Vɴɽ ɱ x = ɨɪ ɮi E |vx j l + =iiɮ |n Mʴxn ɱɦ {xi J j l* = ɨɪ ɽ {ɮ {V +Sx ְ <* Vɤ ɽ Vx {V-+Sx ְ M<, Vɤ ɽ n x Mɪ, iɤ ɽ V{ V |vx j xɽ l* ɽ Exp {. Vɴɽ ɱ x + |n {. Mʴxn ɱɦ {xi J j l* Vɤ EO E n V l iɤ BE BMVE] +bǮ xEɱ Mɪ Vɺɨ E Mɪ l E 200 ] Ij E< ֺɱɨx xɨV xɽ {gM* Vɤ ɽ Vx {V +Sx l + 200 ] Bʮ E< ֺɱɨx xɨV xɽ {g Ei l, i ɽ ʺVn E M<* Vɤ iɱ J Mɪ, iɤ EO E ɮEɮ l + Vɤ ʶɱxɺ E Mɪ, i |vx j VҴ Mv l + =xx +{x Sxɴ E +ʦɪx ʶɱxɺ Ex E n ְ E*

... (ɴvx)

MR. SPEAKER: Nothing should go on record except Dr. Vijay Kumar Malhotra's speech.

(Interruptions)*

b. ʴVɪ E֨ɮ ɱj : +vI ɽn, = ɨɪ Mɽ j ] ʺƽ V l* +{x ֺɱɨx < {Ux Sɽi E Vɺ VMɽ 50 ɱ {V-+Sx + VɺE +ɺ{ɺ 200 ] Ij E< ֺɱɨx < xɨV xɽ {g Ei, i E = ʺVn EM*

... (ɴvx)

+vI ɽn, +{ɺ Ex Sɽi E +V n < ɨ|nʪE xi E M x E VB*

+vI ɽn, nx E *

... (ɴvx)

+lE ɨɱ + ɹ]Sɮ E ɨɱ ɽi E *

... (ɴvx)

VxiE ɨɱ ɽi E *

MR. SPEAKER: Shri Ramdas Athawale, please take your seat.

b. ʴVɪ E֨ɮ ɱj : +vI ɽn, ɹ]Sɮ E ɨɱ + {]E ɨɱ ɽi E * >{ɮ {Sɺ E {]E * vɮ 144 E ɨɱ xi , Fʨxɱ ɨɱ xi * E< ʨxɺ] B xɽ Vɺ {ɮ vɮ 144 E ɨɱ x xi * Vɺ {ɮ ɮEɮ |{] icx E ɨɱ x xi * ɤ j * ɹ]Sɮ + {]E ɨɱ E +{ i ʨɱ<* ɽ

____________________________________________________________________

*Not Recorded.

Z` |Sɮ E Mɪ, Z` E xɪ Mɪ + Z` E xE =ɨ ƺE ɽ EM, `E xɽ *

+vI ɽn, <xx ɽ E E +bh V Jn +{x E E *

... (ɴvx)


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