___________________________________________________________________________

*Expunged as ordered by the Chair

** Not Recorded.

MR. SPEAKER: This should not go on record.

(Interruptions) ...*

SHRI P.H. PANDIYAN : Sir, I should be allowed to speak. (Interruptions).

MR. SPEAKER: This should not go on record.

(Interruptions)*

SHRI K. YERRANNAIDU : Sir, I am on a point of order. If any Member makes an allegation against any other Member, he should give notice to the hon. Speaker and also to the concerned Member and an opportunity to the Member should be given. He has not followed all these things. It should be removed from the records. (Interruptions).

MR. SPEAKER: This should not go on record.

(Interruptions)*

MR. SPEAKER: I have called Shri Geete.

... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Nothing should go on record except what Shri Geete says.

(Interruptions) *

E |ɺn Vɪɺɴɱ (ɮhɺ) : +vI V, ɽ i fS l

... (ɴvx)

|ɦxl ʺƽ (ɽɮVMV, ʤɽɮ) : +vI V, ɽ i n l, =E {xxǨh l*

... (ɴvx)

MR. SPEAKER: These words can be expunged from the records.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI P.H. PANDIYAN : Sir, I will finish in two minutes. (Interruptions). Four Ministers are facing trial before the special judge and the special judge has framed charges. I do not know whether these four Ministers have appeared before the judge or not...(Interruptions). Is it a way? We have only one speaker not umpteen number of speakers. These four Ministers have taken oath under the Constitution that they will bear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution and they will discharge their duties without fear or favour, affection or ill-will to all manner of people.

______________________________________________________________________________

*Not Recorded.

On the demolition of the Babri Masjid where is the oath? Now, they have taken... (Interruptions). If this is videographed, they will not get one vote outside. I am telling you frankly that they cannot get one vote. There must be uniformity in standards in public life. There cannot be equations in treating individual Ministers. (Interruptions).

MR. SPEAKER: Shri Pandiyan, please wind up.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI P.H. PANDIYAN : Some Ministers have been asked to resign. Shri R. Muthiah was asked to resign by the hon. Prime Minister; Shri Buta Singh was asked to resign; Shri Lalu Prasad Yadav was asked to resign after he has been chargesheeted; Shri Madan Lal Khurana has been asked to resign.

Now, I appeal to the hon. Prime Minister, through you, Sir, to obtain the resignation of the Minister of Home Affairs, Minister of Human Resource Development, Kumari Uma Bharati, Shri Murasoli Maran and Shri T.R. Baalu.

MAJ. GEN. (RETD.) B.C. KHANDURI (GARHWAL): He is not supposed to leave immediately after his speech. This is against the protocol. He should be called back. He should not immediately leave the House. (Interruptions).

+xxi MMɮɨ Mi (ixMʮ) : +vI ɽn, +v E P]x 6 nɨɮ 1992 E <* +V < P]x E i ɱ MB * i ɱ E n < nx = P]x {ɮ SS E * ɽ SS n E ʱB n֦M{h * +v E ɨɱ xɪɱɪ ʨi * xɪɱɪ x V ɱ Ex , EM* Vɺ +v ɽ P]x <, +v < i E ڱ M<* Eɱ +v xɽ ɮ n < i E ڱ Mɪ*

... (ɴvx)

< P]x E M ڱ MB* ... (ɴvx) Vɤ +v E P]x <, = ɨɪ xɮʺƽ ɴ V n E |vx j l* = ɨɪ EO {] E V l* ..+<. x < ɨɱ E VS E* ɽ ɨɱ 5 +Eiڤɮ 1993 E nV +* +V < i E 6 ɱ MB * xɮʺƽɴ V {S ɱ iE |vxɨj l* = ɨɪ E x M xɽ E + x < nx SS <*

... (ɴvx)

E SS xɽ E + x E M E* 1996 < nx * Mɮ E ɦ < nx E n *

... (ɴvx)

ɺn +Sɪ (E֮) : 1996 + 1997 < {ɮ SS <* +{E ɱڨ xɽ *

... (ɴvx)

+xxi MMɮɨ Mi : ֱɪɨ ʺƽ V Vɤ ɽ l i =xE nn E ɨZ l* n +v E P]x xɽ i i ɪn ֱɪɨ ʺƽ V Jɨj x i* =xE nn ɽi * =xE ɴx E ɨZ Ei * Vɤ ɽ P]x < i Exp EO {] E ɮEɮ l + xɮʺƽ ɴ V |vx j l* ɽ = E xɽ E*

... (ɴvx)

+{E E nn ? +{ +V E ʱB B M E ? 1996 11 E ɦ E Sxɴ +* 13 nx E ʱB +] V n E |vx j x* = 13 nx E ɮEɮ ֮ x V V ʨxɺ] l + = ɮi V ʨxɺ] l* ʡ 13 ɽx E ɮEɮ +<* < 13 ɽx E ɮEɮ +bh V, ֮ x V + = ɮi V ʨxɺ] l*

... (ɴvx)

+V +{ E ʱB M E ? Vx M x P]ɱ E ɽ VF E, Vɺ ɱ Eb E VF E, =x ix Sɽi E +v E +xnx E< P]ɱ xɽ , ɽ E< ɹ]Sɮ xɽ * +v E +xnx < n E Ec ʽxn+ E ɴx+ E +xnx l* ɽ E< P]ɱ xɽ , E< E{x xɽ , ɽ E< ɱ Eb xɽ *

... (ɴvx)

iɵi Siִn (JV֮ɽ) : <E n ֨< V ZMc B, ɽ Ex +xnx l?

... (ɴvx)

+xxi MMɮɨ Mi : ɽ E< P]ɱ xɽ * ɽ Vxi E +xnx *

... (ɴvx)

+vI V, ɽ VxiE +xnx l* EO E M V +Vn E n 40 ɱ iE Miɮ ii , =x +xnx Ex E Vɰi xɽ {c* <xx +Vn E {ڴ +xnx E Ex =E n xɽ E* ʴ{I E M Vxx +Vn E n +xnx E, +V ii +ɪ ֪ * Vɺ +xnx E Uc, = n E Ec Vxi x ɨlx n* = +xnx E Vʮ n E Vxi x ii ` n* Vxi x = +xnx E Vʮ V{ V E ii `ɪ* E < i E =`ɪ V EE Vɤ . VҴ Mv E xɨ +ɪ , =xE Jɱɡ SVǶ] nɪɮ E M< , iɤ ɽ ɨɱ =`ɪ V *

... (ɴvx)

.. ֱɪɨ ʺƽ V E nn E ɨZ Ei * +vI ɽn, Z < n BE S]Eֱ n +

... (ɴvx)

.. ɽ ɨɱ {U n ɱ Sɱ * = ʴɹɪ E VcE E {U n nx M E V , <E {ɽ E M xɽ E M< l* + nɺɨֶ V x |vxɨj V E |iɹ` E i E * Vɤ V{ V 13 nx iE |vxɨj , = ɨɪ =xE |iɹ` ɱڨ xɽ l* Vɤ <x M x 13 ɽx E ɮEɮ Mɮ n, = ɨɪ =x V{ V E |iɹ` n xɽ + +V |vxɨj V E |iɹ` E n + * +vI ɽn, ɮ l V |<] 訤ɮ ʤɱ ɪ E E ʴn xMʮE E < n E |vxɨj xɽ x Sʽ + x E< =SS {n {ɮ `ɪ Vx Sʽ* Vɤ ɽ ʤɱ < nx +ɪ, iɤ +{E n +ɪ

... (ɴvx)

..

+vI ɽn : + +{ ɨ{i E*

+xxi MMɮɨ Mi : +vI ɽn, ɨ{i E * {ڮ n xi l Ex {U n nx <x M x +xi {n E J * E 6 nɨɮ E +v EU xɽ +, M < i E ڱ Mɪ

... (ɴvx)

.. vɨ E xɨ {ɮ M n nM x Sɽi * BE S]Eֱ EE +{x i ɨ{i Ei * Z =x n ni E Ex n + *

+vI ɽn : xɽ, xɽ.

+xxi MMɮɨ Mi : +vI ɽn, n ʨj BE nںɮ i E l E +SxE BE ʨj x nںɮ E l{{c ɮ n i nںɮ ʨj E +SxE ɽ E Mɪ E Z l{{c ɮ n* nںɮ ʨj E {U ɱ i֨x Z Mv E l, ɽ i n EE x i֨ l{{c ɮ n*

{ɪ]x jɱɪ E V j (E֨ɮ = ɮi) : +vI V, SE ɮ-ɮ xɨ ʱɪ MB , <ʱB ʺɡ n ix E E +{x i ɨ{i Ex Sɽi , nx E ɨɪ Jɮɤ xɽ Ex Sɽi * ɽ nx ={ʺli ɦ xxҪ n +x֮v Ei E +Mɮ Z i i Ex nM i ɨɪ {ɮ +{x i n-ix E E ɨ{i E nM*

+vI V, +{E vɨ nx <ix xɴnx Ex Sɽi E ɮ-ɮ ɽ V i E M< E +bh V <iҡ n, V V <iҡ n, <iҡ n, i Ex Sɽi E =x M xɽ V Eֺ E ɱS + Eֺ S{E x Sɽi * Ex ʺɡ BE i Ex Sɽi E +SxE ɽ ɴɱ V E Jc E Mɪ , ɽ E xҪi E l Jc E Mɪ * <E {U {ڮ Vxi * Vxi ɽ E {ɽ +] V E ɮEɮ i Sɱ l, ɽi +SU Eɨ E l* = ɨɪ {ɮ < iɮ E ɽ xɪ Mɪ E +i +] V E ɮEɮ E Sxɴ E ɨx Ex {c* Sxɴ ɮ ʱB ɦ MB + M x + ɮ ɦ ɽM n E +SU ɽ֨i E l nx `ɪ* <E n +] ʤɽɮ V{ E xii 21 n ɮi |ɴ E * {ʮʺliɪ B x + {ڮ nxɪ Vɺ |Eɮ ɮi E vV {iE + Vɺ |Eɮ {ڮ nxɪ ɮi E {I ɽ x , =ɺ B Mi E 21 n ɮi {ڮ nxɪ xƤɮ BE E n xE nJ VBM* Ex Vɺ |Eɮ ɽ n nx ɮ-ɮ +v E ɨɱ =`ɪ V ,

... (ɴvx)

ɽ ɨɱ +bh V E, V V E j {n ]x E xɽ , ɽ ɨɱ n E EW Ex E xҪi =`ɪ V , ɽ ɨɱ ɮEɮ E ʱB ֺҤi Jc Ex E ɨɱ *

+vI V, +iɨ i EE +{x i ɨ{i E * +{E ʴɶɺ nx Sɽi

... (ɴvx)

+{E ɮh Ex Sɽi E ֨< ɮ ɮiҪ Vxi {] E +Jɱ ɮiҪ +vɴx l* +SxE +bh V x ɽ {ɮ Ph E E ɮ {] E iɮ +] ʤɽɮ V{ V |vx j M* Vix BE J M = {bɱ Vn l, B M l V EɪM xɽ, ʱE jiɪM ` , Vɤ ɨ E E VMq ɮi E ʨɱM + ɮi E E VMq ɨ E ʨɱM* B iɴɮh ɮ ɽ {ɮ +bh V x xʨi E * +bh V, V V + Eֺ S{Ex ɱ M xɽ , ii-{ xɽ *

... (ɴvx)

Ex Vɤ E VS +Jɮ Sɮh {ɮ niE n , = ɨɪ < ɨɱ E Vɺ xҪi =`ɪ Mɪ , = xҪi E Vɱ ƺx ɱ xɽ , xɽ , xɽ * ɽ

xɴnx Ex Sɽi *

... (ɴvx)

SHRI SUDIP BANDYOPADHYAY (CALCUTTA NORTH WEST): Sir, the Trinamool Congress is a firm believer in the principles of secularism and communal harmony. We also believe in the principle of unity in diversity. I want to raise one basic question which is whether the matter that is being discussed here today is a sub judice matter, and whether any sub judice matter can be raised on the floor of the House or not. I want to hear your ruling on this. While the discussion was going on, Shri Sukh Ram's name has also been raised.

Sir, I firmly believe that reference to the Babri Masjid issue and the case of Shri Sukh Ram should not be made in the same bracket. Then the impact of the issue would get diluted. The issue of demolition of the Babri Masjid is, no doubt, a very serious issue. We also, as has been mentioned by the leader of the Telugu Desam Party in Parliament, Shri Yerrainnaidu, launched protest against the demolition of the Mosque. At that time, we were in the Congress Party. But frankly speaking, when we were in the Congress it was really difficult for us to move around in the muslim dominated areas in different parts of the city of Calcutta in particular and in the State of West Bengal in general.

Sir, during the Assembly elections of 1996 in the State of West Bengal -- the constituency which I represent, 40 per cent of the population in the area are Urdu speaking Muslims -- the Muslims with folded hands told me that I should not mention the name of the Congress Party but should seek votes for my own sake. This was the situation then. Now, the situation has started to change. What we feel is that we are playing with fire and this issue is very sensitive.

Sir, the judgement of the special court was delivered on 9.9.97 and the Government headed by Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee was dissolved on 26.4.99. Shri Basudeb Acharia, a few minutes back, was saying that this issue was discussed at that time also.

SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA (BANKURA): I said, it was raised.

SHRI SUDIP BANDYOPADHYAY : But this issue was not raised so vociferously as it is being raised today. What are the reasons behind it? I would not say that the Private Members' Bill moved by Shri Kirit Somaiah has caused a lot of anger and fury in the minds of the Members of the Opposition. But we would certainly say that justice delayed is justice denied. So, we would like the case to be expedited. Shri Advani has told that he would make efforts to see that this matter is concluded very quickly ... (Interruptions) I would not like to say anything on matters like whether Shri Advani would continue as the Home Minister or not; or whether he would be in charge of that Department or not. Those aspects would be replied to by him or by the hon. Prime Minister. All that I would like to say is that this is a sensitive matter and we should not utter anything or behave in a manner which might cause anger and make the situation more worse.

Sir, I would also like to say that even in the last Elections the Congress Party did not raise this issue of Babri Masjid so vociferously as they are doing it now. The reason is not known to us. These issues get priority only when the leaders of the Party move without any direction. I would like to appeal to the hon. Prime Minister to see that this case is concluded at the earliest and all the political parties should abide by the judgement of the Supreme Court. I hope that this Babri Masjid issue is concluded as soon as possible.

THE PRIME MINISTER (SHRI ATAL BIHARI VAJPAYEE): Mr. Speaker, Sir, pending Ayodhya cases can be classified into two categories.

The first category is of cases relating to the title dispute. There are five such cases, two of which have remained pending since over 49 years.

The second category is of the case arising out of the happenings of December 6, 1992. In this case, charge-sheets have been filed by the CBI against over fifty persons. This case is pending before the Special Additional Sessions Judge (Ayodhya Prakaran) since 5th October, 1993.

I would like to affirm that ever since I have assumed office in March, 1998, neither I nor my Government has ever interfered in this case, even though the investigating agency, namely, the CBI is directly under me. As has already been indicated in another context, Government holds that interference in a pending prosecution is impermissible in law.

Neither the Constitution nor the law disqualifies a Minister from holding office merely because a charge-sheet is filed by the police or formal charges are framed by the court.

The question as to who should be in the Council of Ministers is one of Prime Ministerial discretion, and sense of political propriety. Many circumstances are relevant to the final decision of the Prime Minister on these issues.

In view of the fact that no change in the position of court cases has taken place ever since the Ministers concerned were inducted into office in March, 1998, and no allegation of corruption or misuse of office is involved, the demand that the Ministers quit office or that they be barred from replying to certain questions is untenable.

However, the cases will be allowed to proceed without any interference from the Government here or at the State level.

I urge this House to await the judicial verdict.

... (Interruptions)

______

... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: The House stands adjourned to meet at 11 a.m. tomorrow the 8th December, 1999.

18.58 hrs

The Lok Sabha then adjourned till Eleven of the Clock on

Wednesday, December, 8, 1999/Agrahayana 17, 1921 (Saka)

_________