(Interruptions)

[English]

SHRI MANMOHAN SINGH: All this is absolutely unsubstantiated.

(interruptions)

SHRI DIGVIJAYA SINGH: It is a mere fiction thriller. The hon.

Member should take up writing fiction thrillers. He will do well.

[Translation]

You may please give the facts ... (Interruptions)

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: If you, have the facts, please give them to us.

189 Motion re. collapse of B.C.C.I.

Whatever information we have with us we will give to you. I think the BCCI scandal is boing discussed in as many as 70 countries of the world. The BCCI scandal is being investigated by all the countries of the world except those countries where there is dictatorship and where cult of violence prevails. BCCI case is also under investigation in our country too. However, the ruling party says that it is totally concerted and a fiction. It is a disinformation, what they say. An attempt to protect the BCCI is being made. The entire world is making the affairs of this bank public ...(Interruptions) I could not follow it ... (Interruptions)

[English]

SHRI DIGVIJAYA SINGH: The Inquiry can be held only after certain facts are given. If the hon. Member has any facts, he should bring them forward.

SHRI NIRMAL KANTI CHATTERJEE: After all the facts are known the inquiry should start. That is his submission.

SHRI DIGVIJAYA SINGH: Sir, it is absolutely correct that the inquiry should be held by the RBI. The Finance Ministry can hold it.

(Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: I am sure the Finance Minister is taking a serious note of all that you are saying.

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Sir, he is absolutely competent to reply .... (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Kindly do not interrupt him.

[Translation]

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: All right. I can understand why you are worried ... Why are you interrupting me? Please let me make my point.

When the Minister of Finance will give the reply, he should place the ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------

**Expunged as ordered by the Chair.

190 Motion re. collapse of B.C.C.I.

information if he has any ... (Interruptions)

SHRI DAU DAYAL JOSHI: Bad association bad name.

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the problem is that six officers of the bank were apprehended. It was done under the COFEPOSA.

One among them is absconding and the rest have been placed under detention. (Interruptions)**

[English]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Fernandes, how can you say that the former Prime Minister has ordered their release?

(Interruptions)

SHRI DIGVIJAYA SINGH: Sir, on the floor of the House I wanted to raise an issue. I had given in writing to the hon. Speaker about certain people who have been let off under COFEPOSA when Shri V.P.

Singh was the Finance Minister. I had submitted the relevant document and the files. I have not yet been allowed to raise it.

Sir, if the hon. Member, Shri Fernandes, has got a record, he should submit it. Only then, he should make accusation...

(Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shri Fernandes, you have made a statement that the former Prime Minister released them. Was it on record some where? Was it purely your conjecture?

SHRI MANMOHAN SINGH: Mr. Chairman, this is totally

unsubstantiated thing that Mr. Fernandes has said ... (Interruptions) MR. CHAIRMAN: Please sit down when I am on my legs.

(Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Fernandes, I am sure you will agree with me that it is quite not correct to make an unsubstantiated allegation unless you have got something, by which you can authenticate it.

191 Motion re.collapse of B.C.C.I.

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Sir, I stand by my

allegation...(Interruptions) Sir, Mr. Digvijaya Singh's point is that he has given in writing to the Speaker that Mr. V. P. Singh was the Finance Minister and he ordered the release of these COFEPOSA detenus(Interruptions)

SHRI DIGVIJAYA SINGH: Yes, I have said that and I stand by that.

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Very good. I thank my friend, Shri

Digvijaya Singh, for confirming it. Shri Rajiv Gandhi was his own Finance Minister when he ordered the release of these detenus ...

(Interruptions)

SHRI DIGVIJAYA SINGH: Sir, I would like to correct the honourable Shri George Fernandes. The documents that I have submitted were of the time when the honourable Shri V. P. Singh was the Finance Minister of this country and he had signed the release order ... (Interruptions) SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: Who was the Prime Minister at that

time?... (Interruptions)

THE MINISTER OF STATE OF THE MINISTRY OF SURFACE TRANSPORT (SHRI JAGDISH TYTLER): Mr. Chairman, Sir, till the hon. Member, Shri George Fernandes, produces any document, no allegation against Shri Rajiv Gandhi should go on record. (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: I have already given a ruling that unless Shri George Fernandes could substantiate what he has said and bring it to the notice of the hon. Speaker in his chamber, any reference to the former Prime Minister passing any order about release of anybody will be expunged from the record.

(Interruptions)

SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: Sir, Hon. Speaker was not in the chair some time ago when Shri Digvijaya Singh took to many names. Did he try so substantiate any of them? (Interruptions)

192 Motion re. collapse of B.C.C.I.

AN HON. MEMBER: This is a serious matter. (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shri Somnath Chatterjee and Shri George Fernandes, you are very senior parliamentarians. I think it is the well known practice that...

(Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please do not talk when I am on my feet. If any allegations have to be levelled against any sitting Member or any ex- Member of former Prime Minister, then a notice to that effect should be given to the hon. Speaker and only after taking such permission that any allegation of such a serious nature are levelled against any sitting Member, or a Minister, Prime Minister of former Prime Minister or anybody like that, can be made. I think you will agree with me that this practice should not be violated.

(Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: I would, therefore, request Shri George Fernandes that if there is anything pertaining to the remarks about a former Prime Minister they will be erased from the records if not substantiated by him.

(Interruptions)

[Translation]

SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA (South Delhi):What about the allegations he has levelled? (Interruptions)

SHRI JAGDISH TYTLER: Why are you looking up? Please talk to the Chairman. Are you passing on any news? (Interruptions)

[English]

MR. CHAIRMAN: It is not within my knowledge as to what Shri Digvijaya Singh has said. I can only say that if you, hon. Members, are seriously objecting to that, first of all my remarks would be that you should have objected at that particular point

193 Motion re. collapse of B.C.C.I.

of time. Secondly,if you have failed to object at that particular point of time and you are objecting now, then I would say that record can be examined by the hon. Speaker and if there is anything objectionable, I think the Speaker would certainly expunge them. That is the only ruling that I can give at this stage. (Interruptions) [Translation]

SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: Mr. Chairman, Sir, I am on a point of order. (Interruptions)

[English]

SHRI PAWAN KUMAR BANSAL (Chandigarh): If he has any document in his possession, why is it that he is not reproducing it in the House now? (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Kindly do not interrupt. I have asked Shri Ram Vilas Paswan to speak.

[Translation]

SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: I want only this much from you that your ruling should be equally applicable to all the discussions held here and all the allegations made by hon. Members against the former Prime Minister and other Ministers.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Paswan, I am not empowered to give blanket orders that all the allegations that were levelled against any Prime Minister who were in power during last five years should be expunged.

SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: It is not the question of last five years but it is a case of very recent past. (Interruptions)

[English]

MR. CHAIRMAN: I do not know. There may have been substantiated allegations against some former Prime Ministers.

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------

194 Motion re. collapse of B.C.C.I.

(Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: But, what I can say is, we should take notice of what is happening at the present moment.

(Interruptions)

[Translation]

SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: Mr. Chairman, Sir that is why I am saying that when Maliniji was in the chair ... (Interruptions)

[English]

SHRIMATI MALINI BHATTACHARYA (Jadavpur): Whatever remarks had been made against whichever former Prime Minister whether it is Shri V. P. Singh let them be expunged.

SHRI A. CHARLES (Trivandrum): Sir, I am on a point of order.

SHRI JAGDISH TYTLER: Where are the documents?

(Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: I am sorry. This ruling would have no meaning to have blanket erasure of any reference to any person previously.

(Interruptions)

SHRI A. CHARLES: Sir, on a point of order please.

MR. CHAIRMAN: One at a time. I have asked Shri Pawan Kumar Bansal to speak. Let him speak.

(Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, Shri Bansal.

SHRI A. CHARLES: *(Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: I would request him not to say anything against the Chairperson who was in the Chair at that particular time.

195 Motion re. collapse of B.C.C.I.

Kindly have this much respect for the Chair that if Shrimati Malini Bhattacharyaji or ABC or anybody is in the Chair, kindly don't cast any aspersions. Nothing regarding Shrimati Malini Bhattacharya will go on record.

(Interruptions)

SHRI PAWAN KUMAR BANSAL (Chandigarh): Sir, my submission is that there is abasic difference between the tenor of what Shri Digvijaya Singh has said and what Shri George Fernandes has said. All that Shri Digvijaya Singh said was in reference to the time when certain incidents took place when Shri V. P. Singh was the Finance Minister, while Shri Fernandes made unsubstantiated and wild allegations.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shri Digvijaya Singh is very much here. Whatever he wants to say, he can say it.

(Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Fernandes, would you like to continue your speech?

SHRI PAWAN KUMAR BANSAL: Shri Fernandes levelled a baseless allegation. (Interruptions)

[Translation]

SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: Mr. Chairman, Sir, what is your decision since I have also raised this point in the House.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I have already given my Ruling in response to your point of order. I have already said that I do not have the authority to give blanket Ruling to expunge the names of all the former Prime Ministers which have come. I cannot give any such Ruling. But the Ruling that I have just given that whatever Mr. George Fernandes has said

[English]

About the former Prime Minister will be

196 Motion re. collapse of B.C.C.I.

erased from the record.

(Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: I can only give a Ruling on what is within my knowledge. What has happened in front of me, I can give a Ruling on that. Mr. Ram Vilas Paswan , on anything that happened last year or a year before, I cannot give a Ruling.

SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: That mean's that the points made by Shri Digvijay Singh will go on record. (Interruptions)

[English]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Anyway, I have given my Ruling. I cannot give any blanket Ruling.

(Interruptions)

[Translation]

SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: Before George Fernandes Shri Digvijay Singh had also referred to Shri V. P. Singh by name that he was with the National Front and it will go on record. But when he said that Shri V. P. Singh was the Finance Minister when he was the Prime Minister, it will not go on record. (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: I have given my Ruling on this also. If Shri

Digvijay Singh has levelled an unsubstantial allegation on anyone and if the hon. Speaker while examining the record considers it objectionable he will erase it. It was not said in my presence. It is the hon. Speaker, who will examine it. I have already given this Ruling.

(Interruptions)

[English]

MR. CHAIRMAN: The other thing I want to say is that there was no time allotted for this discussion. I would like to take the sense 197 Motion re. collapse of B.C.C.I.

of the House about this.

THE MINISTER OF STATE OF THE MINISTRY OF STEEL (SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV): We are ready to sit late. Let it be finished today.

MR. CHAIRMAN: It is up to the House, whatever time you want to give for this.

SHRI SONTOSH MOHANDEV:We want to finish it today.

(Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN: We have already taken, I think, about three-and-a- half hours on this subject. Would you like to suggest some time, Mr.

Jaswant Singhji?

SHRI JASWANT SINGH (Chittorgarh): Mr. Chairman, Sir, when the time was fixed for this discussion...

MR. CHAIRMAN: There is no time fixed.

SHRI JASWANT SINGH: Sir, a discussion took place both in the Business Advisory Committee as also with the Hon'ble Speaker. It was decided that the discussion on my motion would start today at One o'Clock. The anticipation was that the hon. Finance Minister's reply to the Finance Bill would commence at 11 a.m. and end by One o'clock and this discussion would start at One o'Clock and go on till about 4.30 p.m. In that sense by implication, three-and-a-half hours have been allocated. But this discussion has started only at Four o'Clock.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, it started at Four o'Clock. That means,

another one hour is left.

(Interruptions)

SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV: Mr. Chairman, Sir, the hon. Parliamentary Affairs Minister has gone somewhere and before going he said, as Shri Jaswant Singh has very rightly pointed out, that this discussion is for three house and if necessary, it can be extended with the consent of Shri

198 Motion re. collapse of B.C.C.I.

Jaswant Singh and other Members for another one hour more. But preferably it should be finished today.

Shri Somnath chatterjee shri somnath chatterjee: Sir, he is a crusader against corruption and we hope he will not try to stifle this discussion.

(Interruptions)

SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE: Sir, the Congress Party wants to stfle this discussion.

SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV: You speak for whatever time you want and we will listen to your speech. But do not say that the Congress Party wants to stifle the discussion.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I must say that Shri Sontosh Mohan Dev is very magnanimous. So, let us fix the time. According to Shri Jaswant Singh, it comes to 7.30 p.m. and therefore, I think, we can sit upto 8.00 p.m.

(Interruptions)

SHRI PAWAN KUMAR BANSAL (Chandigarh):Sir, kindly fix the time for each speaker also, because there are many Members who want to speak.

(Interruptions)

[Translation]

DR. LAXMINARAYAN PANDEYA (Mandsaur): Mr. Chairman, Sir, it should be made clear that no business other than BCCI will be taken up today.

MR. CHAIRMAN: In that case, when will the remaining business be taken up.

DR. LAXMINARAYAN PANDEYA: Mr. Chairman, Sir, they will be taken up on Monday.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The leaders of all parties have unanimously agreed in the Business Advisory Committee that 4 hours would

199 Motion re. collapse of B.C.C.I.

be allotted for discussion to this subject.

[English]

I think for Monday and Tuesday the business is full.

[Translation]

Since it has started at 4 P.M. let us have it completed by 8.00 or 8.30 P.M.

(Interruptions)

[English]

MR. CHAIRMAN: We are unnecessarily wasting the time of the House.

Now, Shri George Fernandes can continue his speech. Mr. Fernandes, you have brought out so many points. Let them chew over those points.

[Translation]

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Mr. Chairman, Sir, firstly, I would like to know from the Minister of Finance the names of the banks and the connections they had with this Bank. I would, particularly like to know about the audit report which was prepared recently under Section 41 of Bank of England Act and some parts of which has been published.

The above audit report was however not published in Indian newspapers.

Though the report was published in the newspapers of England, they have tried to censure the remaining parts of the report. Under these circumstances, did the Indian Government make any efforts to call for this report from the British Government? Had the Government obtained the report? Does that report say anything about State Bank of India giving loan to B.C.C.I. The State Bank gave loan of 50 million dollars to B.C.C.I. The work on which the loan amount was utilized and what were the terms and conditions of the loan. Is it a fact that this amount was utilized by the B.C.C.I. for servicing their own accounts?

We want to have a categorical statement from the hon. Minister of Finance as to what were the connec-

200 Motion re. collapse of B.C.C.I.

tions between the State Bank and B.C.C.I. in the records of Secret Department which was censured by the British Government. More than that, we want a clarification on the connections between the Syndicate Bank and the B.C.C.I. Among the nationalised banks of India the position of Syndicate Bank is most dismal; If any other bank is more sick than this Bank, the Minister of Finance should let the House know...

[English]

MR. CHAIRMAN: That is besides the point. That is not the matter under discussion.

SHRI DIGVIJAYA SINGH: That is what they are discussing. The BCCI does not owe to Syndicate Bank a penny. It has been given in writing.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I think, that is quite irrelevant to the subject in hand.

[Translation]

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: When the B.C.C.I. came under attack in England and U.S.A., even then the B.C.C.I. did the same thing as these people are doing today. These people said the same thing in their defence everywhere. The B.C.C.I. is a satan for countries all over the world but a saint in India.

[English]

MR. CHAIRMAN: You have taken one hour.

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES: Mr. Digvijaya Singh has finished his speech at quarter to 6 O'clock. He took one hour and 5 minutes without any interruption.


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