SHRI RAJNATH SONKAR SHASTRI: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this House has a dignity of its own. Why papers are being thrown in this manner?...(Interruptions)... I place this paper on the table of the House...(Interruptions)...
SHRI RAM NAIK(Bombay-North): Sir, I
749 Places of Worship (Special Provision) Bill
am on a point of order. No one has brought that piece of paper which has been given to you. And none of the BJP Members has thrown it. Now my point of order is, can a Member walk in the well and give that piece of paper in this way? Is it allowed?...(Interruptions)... Giving this sort of false provocation is absolutely wrong...(Interruptions) [Translation]
SHRI RAJNATH SONKAR SHASTRI (Saidpur): Several times, you gave the ruling. The previous Chairman also gave his ruling several times.
You requested the Members and Shrimati Malini Bhattacharya, when she was in the Chair, also requested that a very important issue is being discussed. Therefore, the decorum of the House must be maintained.
These people have created all the problems and are not letting the Members to speak. I do not eat paan and it is being said her that I have kept it before you by taking it out from my pocket. It was in their pocket and they are throwing its pieces. Keeping in view of the decorum of the House. I have kept it before you and asked you to find out as to who are involved in such things. (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Kindly have your seats.
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Kindly have your seats. Whenever the Chair is on his legs, normally the well-established precedent is that other hon.Members will have their respective seats. Here because there was so much of shouting, I was not able to know as to what has happend? I came to know through Shri Rajnath Sonkar Shastri that somebody has thrown it. (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Let us not lose our temper; let us know the truth of it. I am her as a Deputy Speaker. Shri Rabi Rayji is her and Shri Basu Deb Acharia is also here
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on the side of Shri Shastri. I want to know from Shri Rabi Rayji, former Speaker of this House and veteran parliamentarian, Shri Basu Deb Acharia, as to what happed actually.
SHRI PHOOL CHAND VERMA (Shajapur): It seems that only for the purpose of bringing bad names to Bharatiya Janta Party, he has brought it in his pocket. Why we should throw paan at him. What does it mean ?
SHRI RABI RAY (Kendrapada): I didn't know that this would cause so much dispute. But there is no doubt, that it definitely fell. I do not know from where it was thrown it. However it is very bad whosoever has thrown it. (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I request the hon. Members to have their respective seats. Kindly have your seats. (Interruptions)
SHRI RABI RAY: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we are all have to
maintain the decorum of the House. There is no doubt that the paper fell before us. When it fell, I asked Acharia Basudeb from where it had come. I do not know because my face was on opposite side.
Therefore, this dispute should be stopped here. If anyone has been identified or anyone admits voluntarily, then it is okay. However, when a discussion is going on this important subject. It should be continued. That's all (Interruptions)
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I appeal to you that it is the sole responsibility of all the hon. Members to maintain the decorum of this House. Secondly, politically we may differ but we are the masters of this
751 Places of Worship (Special Provision) Bill
[Sh. Rabi Ray]
House. We have to maintain the decorum and the dignity of the House.
We have to maintain the decorum and the dignity of the House.
Certainly, if any such thing has happened, we deeply regret for it and let us not give room for such things. Let us maintain the dignity and decorum of the House. It is my earnest appeal to all the Members in this House that let us spend time on this valuable debate. We may differ politically but that is a different matter (Interruptions) [Translation]
SHRI RAJNATH SONKAR SHASTRI: I put an end to this issue here.
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I really feel sorry for has happend and i apologie for the same.Such a thing should never happen in this august House.So,Irequest you to forget whatever unwanted thing has happend.That will be very gracious for us.Let us proceed With debate With greater vigour,enthusiam, love and affection., enthusiasm, love and affection.
SHRI GUMAN MAL LODHA: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, through you.
SHRI RABI RAY: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to thank Shri Lodha that during his speech, he has talked about the unity and intergrity which is a very vital issue. It is our duty to maintain the unity and intergrity of our contry. Iwould like to tell him and the House that in the Indian National Army, which was formed by Netaji Subhash Chand Bose,there were three leaders with him.They were Dhallan, Sehgal and ShahnabazKhan had been a Member Bahadurshah Jafar also whom the whole of Indian had accepted as a leader of this contry.
When Shri Lodha has so high esteem for Netaji Subhas Chandra 752 Please of Worship (Special Provision) Bill
Bose,he should accept Bahadurshah Jafar also as the symbol of nationality who had once repersented our contry against English People.Ithink that it will be good for the House and for the integrity of the country if we remember all these leaders when we remember Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose.
SHRI GUMAN MAL LODHA: Mr.Deputy Speaker,Sir,in view of the
opinion expressed by the hon.Member Shri Rabi Ray,Iwould like to submit that Shahnawaz Khan along with so many other soldiers belonging to different religions were in the Indian National Army formed by Shri Subhash Chandra Bose.There was no discrimination on the ground of religion in the freedom struggle foughtly Subhash Chandra Bose.We want to follow the path shown by him. But it should be double edged.the hon.Member might be knowing that Shri Sabha.belogs to B.J.P.we have Mohammadan Ministers in U.P.and Rajasthan. Shahnawaz Khan along with so many other soldiers belonging to different religions were in the Indian National Army formed by Shri Subhash Chandra Bose. There was no discrimination on the ground of religion in the freedom struggle foughtly Subhash Chandra Bose. We want to follow the path shown by him. But it should be double edged. The hon. Member might be knowing that Shri Sikander Bakht who is a leader of our party in Rajya Sabha, belongs to B.J.P. we have Mohammadan Ministers in U.P. and Rajasthan.
Sir, Bahadur Shah Zafar was a revolutionary leader of this country. When he has kept in prison at Rangoon, he wrote a poem "Do Gaz Jamin Na Mil Saki"
Which was very popular poem of his all poems. He was cremated at Rangoon. We sing it often. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, Shri Gulam Nabi Azad is also present here. I would like to ask him why these words secularism, socialism and integrity have been deleted from the constitution in regard to Kashmir. A long time has passed when Kashmir was merged with India and today we are in 1991. A lot of big speeches were given here, but Mani Shanker Aiyer never got the courage to tell Shrimati Indira Gandhi that the word secularism should be incorporated in the constitution of Kashmir. I would resign, if my statement is proved wrong that the words "Secularism" and "Integrity"have been omitted from the constitution of Kashmir. You teach us? You say that you will
753 Places of Worship (Special Provision) Bill
crush us? How would you crush us? When Dr. Shyama Prasad Mukherjee was the Member of this House, Pt. Jawahar Lal Nehru had said:
I would crush you.
Then Dr. Shyama Prasad Mukherjee had replied
I would crush the crushing mentality of the Prime Minister.
And I would like to submit to them also that I will not crush them, but as they have been crushing the true nationality of the country for the last forty years, people would crush them and it has already been demonstrated by the people. (Interruptions)
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to submit that I am not the only person to say so. Shri Gadgil, who was once Minister in Nehru's cabinet has written a book entitled "Government from Inside" has also said so. I would read a quotation from it.
AN HON. MEMBER: Which Gadgil you are talking about?
SHRI GUMAN MAL LODHA: He is the same person who had been a
Minister here and his son was also an M.P. in last Lok Sabha, but who is not in the present Lok Sabha.
SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR: You should also tell that Shri Nehru had thrown out Shri Gadgil from his Cabinet. (Interruptions)
754 Places of Worship (Special Provision) Bill
SHRI PHOOL CHAND VERMA (Shajapur): He is now going to tell you as to why he was thrown out?
SHRI GUMAN MAL LODHA: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, he has written:- [English]
"I have already described how systemetically Pakistan drove out its Hindus and how they encouraged Bengali Muslims to enter and occupy some areas in Assam. The Indian Government took no notice of these. On the other hand, Nehru was greatly annoyed when once."
This is very important.
You are trying to teach us. But one must first know himself before attacking others. Do you know as to what Shri Vallabh Bhai Patel had said?
"Vallabhbhai suggested mutual exchange of Hindu and Muslim populations and a propotional division of land between India and Pakistan."
SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR:**
PROF. PREM DHUMAL: A person who was awarded Bharat Ratna is being called by them as** They should be ashamed of uttering such words.
SHRI PHOOL CHAND VERMA (Shajapur): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have
755 Places of Worship (Special Provision) Bill
[Sh. Phool Chand Verma]
a point of order, please listen to my point of order first.
SHRI KALKA DAS (Karol Bagh): These people are using the word.* against a person whose efforts brought them to power.
SHRI PHOOL CHAND VERMA: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, my point of order is that an hon'ble Member of Congress Party has used the word*.
against a person who was honoured with the highest award of Bharat Ratna. I am on a point of order as to how far it is appropriate. I want your ruling in this regard.
SHRI RAM NAIK: Earlier some references were made to Rajiv Gandhi.
Then it was suggested from that side that references to Rajiv Gandhi should not be made, they should be detected. Now, how a Member from that side gets up and says* to Sardar Vallabhbhai Patelji, to whom the title of Bharat Ratna has very recently been awarded by the Government?
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Suppose that word is not in conformity with the parliamentary system of democracy. I shall expunge that word.
SHRI KALKA DAS: They are here due to the efforts made by him.
756 Places of Worship (Special Provision) Bill
SHRI PHOOL CHAND VERMA: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I request you to ask the hon'ble Member to apologise for using foul words against a great man like Sardar Patel, Therefore, through you, he should apologise.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I have already given my Ruling on that.
SHRI PHOOL CHAND VERMA: If he does not apologise to the House, he should be expelled from the House. Such a Member has no right to sit in the House.
You must expel him from the House. Either the Minister for Parliamentary Affairs should apologise on his behalf or he should be expelled from the House. He has used insulting words for a great patriotic leader.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I have already given a Ruling. If that word is unparliamentary and if it is not befitting the parliamentary procedure of this House, that word would be expunged. I have already told that. Let us proceed further.
SHRI GUMAN MAL LODHA: I abide by your direction. He was honoured with the award of Bharat Ratna.
757 Places of Worship (Special Provision) Bill
SHRI SHIVENDRA BAHADUR SINGH (Rajnandgaon): Sir, I am on a point of order. I would like to know the authenticity of the book from which he is quoting or reading his own concocted version of the book which is brought here. Hs he taken permission from the chair for this?
SHRI GUMAN MAL LODHA: It is from the library of the Lok Sabha.
SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR: Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, I am on a point of order, I wish it to be clarified.
SHRI GUMAN MAL LODHA: I am not yielding.
SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR: I am on a point of order, I am not responding to you (Interruptions).
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: One minute. Our hon. Member has raised a point of order stating whether it is a concocted book or a book with authority. So, I give the Ruling. He is a responsible hon. Member of this house, definitely he brings to the House a book which is really worth mentioning here and he has told the name of the author of the book also. Therefore, I over-rule that.
SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR: My point of order is that what Mr. Guman Mal Lodha is reading in the House is not what Sardar said, but what Mr. Gadgil claims Sardar said.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Okay. All right.
SHRI GUMAN MAL LODHA: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have quoted from the book written by Shri N.V. Gadgil entitled ``Government from Inside'' published by Meenakshi Prakashan Meerut. I have got it issued from Parliament library itself and its
758 Places of Worship (Special Provision) Bill
number is 72847. You may please note that all this is written on Page 84 of this Book. Shri Gadgil's comments are also given in the book.
"But one has to confess that such an exchange would have been beneficial in the long run. We are a secular country and our faith in secularism is fundamental, but that too must be tampered by hard realities of the situation. The British treated the Muslims as a favourite wife. And we overlooked many of their transgressions because they were a minority. Our difficulties today spring from this weakness.''
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Sir, I would like to request you that this is written by Gadgil. They could forget Mahhatma Gandhi Jawahar Lal Nehru and even Indira Gandhi. Today the financial situation is that the entire policy has been reversed. My plea is that it was the Gadgil's feelings they are not treated as equal citizens rather an appeasement policy is adopted for them. That is why it is written here.
"And we overlooked many of their transgressions because they were a minority. Our difficulties today spring from this weakness. We feared that a stern treatment of Muslims in India would recoil adversely on Hindus in Pakistan.'' As a result West Pakistan became a land without a single Hindu and of the 20 million Hindus in East Pakistan only about a half still remain. In contrast migration of Muslims from India to Pakistan later 1949 was negligible
Just now an honourable member had mentioned what would happen in Bangladesh. I would like to tell you what is happen-
759 Places of Worship (Special Provision) Bill
ing there. Today, if any Hindu dies in a Muslim country, he is not allowed to be cremated with Hindu rites. The situation is that when any body goes to take food during the time of `Roja', he is whipped out. The Hindus are not allowed to eat; they are not allowed to burn the dead bodies and here we are talking like that. (Interruptions) [English]
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: We are not discussing on the floor of the House, the system existing all over the world.
SHRI GUMAN MAL LODHA: But that has been allowed.
MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Let us stick to the subject matter before us.
We need not go abroad.
SHRI GUMAN MAL LODHA: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we do not copy anybody I would like to quote a couple of lines from the poem of Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee. This will make it clear as to what is our feeling - how large our heart is
"koi Batlasye Kabul me kitni hamne Masjiden todi,
Bhubhag Nahi sat-sat-Manav ka Hriday jeetane ka Nishchaya.'' These lines make our feelings clear.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to point out one thing about the present bill moved in this House. Indian Muslims are mostly used for maintaining a vote bank by vested interests because of their illiteracy. There is already a law regarding the tresspassing of proporty and according to that law no notice is taken if the claim of any property having tresspassed is submitted after 12 years. Mr.
Deputy Speaker Sir, how did it benefit the Muslims. They did in fact, get nothing beyond being misguided. The way V.P. Singh and the men of Rajiv Gandhi run
760 Places of Worship (Special Provision) Bill
after the Imam, of Jama Masjid and entreat before him for the muslim votes. lt is only the stretegy for getting Muslim votes and this Bill has been brought here to appease the Muslims. Otherwise, this is the law of our nation that no one could dare tresspass against other. I would also like to state that the Ram Janam Bhoomi issue as well as other similar issues can not be resolved by the national laws these can be resolved with the help of international laws. Now the name of Lenin Grad is being changed. (Interruptions) Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to state when some change at international level takes place, no body can do anything. Today the name of Lenin Grad is being changed and the communists are helpless to interfere in the matter.
The status of Lenin has been thrown. All the States in Russia have became independent and the Russian Communists do not talk of composite culture and Russian Unity.