SHRI MADHUKAR SARPOTDAR (NORTH-WEST MUMBAI): You are not courageous enough  to
name him.(Interruptions)

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA (MIDNAPORE): I am not naming you. Why are you jumping up?

.. (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN (SHRI CHITTA BASU): I request the hon. Members to see that veteran leader, Shri Indrajit Gupta, is allowed to speak.


SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA (MIDNAPORE): Sir, there are people who went on record, who said something which is completely contradictory to what my friend, Vajpayeeji, had said in the House and who said that our boys who have gone and destroyed this mosque, we are proud of them. We are proud of them. We are proud of them and we congratulate them. So, we would like to know which is the real voice. Which is the real voice of this party or parties? Secondly, we have seen one face of Shri Vajpayee in this House.

... (Interruptions)


... (Interruptions)


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MR. CHAIRMAN (SHRI CHITTA BASU): The Prime Minister has also appealed to you. I think the leader of your party has already made an appeal and he has made it clear that every Member has got the right to speak and you have no right to obstruct anybody from expressing his own views. I again appeal to you to see that this Motion is discussed in a peaceful manner and Mr. Indrajit Gupta should be allowed to speak without any interruption.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA (MIDNAPORE): I would request my friend, Shri Sharad Yadav, to allow the Speaker to conduct the House. Everybody becomes a Speaker here. There are so many Speakers. All trying to conduct the House. There is an elected Speaker here. Please respect him.

Sir, my friend Shri Vajpayee who is a very very old friend of mine and I think we are on very good terms with each other. We have seen one face of him here in this debate, during this debate. All the media, the Press and everybody have definitely been very much impressed by his sobriety, his calmness, his appeal to everybody, his reasonableness etc. etc. But I regret to say that Shri Vajpayee on occasions also has a different face. This is the trouble. I would like to remind him that during the Assam elections of 1983, elections which could hardly be called elections because there was so much disturbance, voters could not come and cast their votes, the whole atmosphere was surcharged.

There were so much fear of disturbances, riots and ethnic clashes and all that. Mr. Vajpayee was campaigning in Assam. I have got here a book which describes the fact that when he was addressing roadside election meetings in Assam, in that highly surcharged atmosphere, he had said this and I am quoting:

"Foreigners have come here; and the Government does nothing. What if they had come into Punjab instead, people would have chopped them into pieces and thrown them away."

Sir, I submit that in that atmosphere prevailing in Assam at that time, for a responsible leader to make statements like this, that they should be chopped into pieces and thrown away, is something which could be nothing but inflammatory. I can tell you that soon after this, that famous or infamous Nellie massacre took place in Assam. I submit that Mr. Vajpayee contributed to creating this atmosphere by this type of inflammatory speeches made by him. This is very different to the type of speech that he made here yesterday, which was of course for other purposes, I know. So, what I want to say is this. ... (Interruptions)

AN HON. MEMBER: What was the Congress Government doing at that time? ... (Interruptions)

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA: Congress Government may go to Hell, it does not matter! ... (Interruptions) But where are you going? ... (Interruptions) Sir, I am aware that most of the Members of the BJP or all of them, ...

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The BJP Members, if I am not wrong - if I am wrong, they will correct me - all of them practically and there may be one or two exceptions, I do not know, did belong at one time or other and got their training also in the RSS. ... (Interruptions)

AN HON. MEMBER: No. No. ... (Interruptions)

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA: All right. If it is no, very good, you did not. So, please stand up, if you are not in the RSS. ... (Interruptions) Please identify yourself. ... (Interruptions) It does not matter. ... (Interruptions) Sir, the ideological guru of the BJP is the RSS. I do not think, they will deny it. I have a book written by late Shri Golwalkar who is the head of the RSS. I have no time and so, I will only quote a few lines from this book in which he says:

"The non-Hindu people in Hindustan must either adopt the Hindu culture and language - I do not know what Hindu language is, but anyway - and learn to respect and hold in reverence the Hindu religion, must entertain no idea but those of glorification of the Hindu race and culture. That is, they must not only give up their attitude of intolerance and ungratefulness towards this land and its age long traditions, but must also cultivate the positive attitude of love and devotion instead. In one word, they must cease to be foreigners or may stay in this country only subordinated to the Hindu nation, claiming nothing, reserving no privileges far less any preferential treatment not even citizen's right."

... (Interruptions)

AN HON. MEMBER: What is the wrong in it? There is nothing wrong. ... (Interruptions)

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA: What the hon. Home Minister has said a little earlier does not tally with this; it does not conform with this which is in bold print.

They are the writings of no less a person than Shri Golwalkar who is certainly considered to be a big intellectual guru of the RSS. This is what we are fighting against. We are fighting against this kind of an attitude, outlook and idea that one culture and common perception of this country must be accepted and imposed on everybody. This country will never survive except on the basis of pluralism. Let it be quite clear. India survives on the basis of pluralism and without pluralism, this country will go to pieces; it will be broken into pieces. I want to know from the Prime Minister, when he replies to the debate, their attitude towards pluralism, pluralism in the composition of this country, pluralism in our society, culture, religion, languages, traditions and history which has, over hundreds of years, brought into being this country, this nation of which we are proud that we have a country like this. I am very glad that the hon. Prime Minister said that this country can never agree to any kind of a theocratic or religious state . We have not become Pakistan. We are not Pakistan or Bangladesh who have declared that they have got an Islamic state but if some people go about propagating as though, in reply to that, we may set up a Hindu Rashtra, it will not be good...(interruptions)...What is Hindu Rashtra? Please explain the meaning of Hindu Rashtra. In this country, not only Hindus live here. Not only Hindus are citizens; millions of people live here who are not Hindus. Do you consider them to be equal citizens or do you want them to be driven out? You must make it clear. You must understand why the whole country is against you and why nobody came forward to support you...(interruptions)...


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SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA: Have you got no leaders who can control their people? I want to know this. You have got such a big and strong party; you must have got some leaders who can control their own people. ..(interruptions)..

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MR. CHAIRMAN (SHRI CHITTA BASU): Mr. Gupta, please address the Chair.

(Interruptions) ... (Not recorded)

MR. CHAIRMAN: These words are not to be uttered here.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA: Sir, is it good to speak like this and to keep to your ideas and thoughts? For the benefit of my another old friend, Mr. George Fernandes, I would like to say something. I do not know whether he is present or not.

For his benefit I would like to just offer a very very short and brief quotation from Mahatma Gandhi. We have a lot of quarrel with Mahatma Gandhi. We differ with him on so many things. He differs with us; we differ with him. But there is one matter in respect of which, I think, I am not afraid to admit it, that we should not have quarrelled with him. We made a mistake if we challenged his idea on that point. Today, I think that we should take a pledge if necessary that we would stick to that teaching of his which I want Shri George Fernendes also to ponder over. What did Gandhiji say?

Mr. Fernendes is not only a socialist but also a special type of socialist, he is an international socialist. Gandhiji said,

"Socialist friends had not understood the A,B,C of socialism. Why could not the socialists see that there can be no socialism in India so long as they are in the octopus grip of communalism".

I think, he never said a truer word than that. We never took him very seriously. Today, when the country is confronted with a crisis we should recall Gandhiji's words... (Interruptions) We are committed to socialist ideals... (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN (SHRI CHITTA BASU): Please sit down. Please resume your seat.

... (Interruptions)


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MR. CHAIRMAN (SHRI CHITTA BASU): Mr. Gupta, please continue.

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA (MIDNAPORE): I do not argue with people who have been expelled from my Party; and who are defectors. I do not argue with defectors. I do not argue with people who go on changing their Party five times, ten times. Such people are not worthy of paying any attention to.

So, I want to say - it has already been said by one speaker - if the majority community in this country is suffering from a minority complex, who is responsible for it? Who has created this so called minority complex in the minds of the majority when there are no basics and no foundations whatever for it?

Sir, I remember in Germany, Hitler used to go on talking about the Jews like the Jews are responsible for all the ills of our country; it is the Jews who have ruined our country; it is the Jews against whom we must be vigilant. This was the old war-cry of the Nazi socialism in Germany and it ended up with sending millions of Jews to the Gas Chamber and killing them enmasse. You go on talking about the minorities; the minorities are responsible for the ills of our country and, I think, it is a very dangerous signal. It may lead to something, we in this country, of course, have not been used to and we are not prepared to tolerate also.

Sir, so these are a few passing thoughts. I could speak about many things but there is no time. It will pass the time since the hon. Prime Minister is supposed to begin his reply. In deference to that I am concluding my remarks. I cannot congratulate these friends because they do not show any respect to anybody.

1255 hrs. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair)

They have no respect even for the Speaker. I am very sorry for the future of this House if the proceedings will continue in the manner that we have seen today. With that, Sir, I wish to conclude by saying that this Vote of Confidence, which has been moved by the Prime Minister, is not worth the paper it is written on. This Motion must be thrown out lock, stock and barrel and I will certainly join with other friends in voting against it.


MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Swell, you may speak for three minutes only. We are already behind schedule. So, I request the participants to be very very brief.

1256 hrs.

PROF. G.G. SWELL(SHILLONG): After so much of turmoil, after so much of collective display of lung power, I hope I would be able to restore some serenity, vision and sanity to this House. I have returned to this House after a number of years. I have come here all on my own defeating all national parties with a margin that perhaps proportionately would be one of the highest in the world.

Sir, the Prime Minister, Mr. Vajpayee has been my friend for a number of years and I have so many good friends in BJP . But I must say with anguish and not with jubilation, after a good deal of introspection and after a good deal of cogitation, that I have made this journey from approximating to a party which I now considered to be a hierarchical and monolithic to the democratic forum of leaders where we meet and discuss, that is the United Front. Mr. Vajpayee has been my friend for a number of years, as I have already said. I thought I knew him. Today, I do not know him. The irrational thing that he ever did was to have assumed power. I had expected that he would show himself to be a leader of this nation and that as a national leader his Government would project a national image. On the other hand he started donning the Hindutva clothes and he started basing his Government on what we called, the cow-belt. This is what I could not understand. This is why perhaps he has not only remained where he was - frozen with 194 supporters with him and has not been able to win any more friends - but as a matter of fact alienated many friends. The worst thing is, Mr. Vajpayee will be going out of office within a few minutes. He will be a leader lying in history and history will not be repeated.

My friends in the BJP, especially Mr. Pramod Mahajan, were saying that after this there will be another election in the country. We are not afraid of another election. I am not afraid of it. I am prepared to face election even tomorrow and I promise that I will beat you with double the margin that I have got now.

Having said so, I say it with considerable pain that Mr. Vajpayee has done a great damage to this country. He has polarised this country. He has divided this country into the cow-belt and non cow-belt. This is what is happening in this country. I do not understand his dissimulation. I do not understand why Mr. Vajpayee has taken to dissimulation. The President's Address is a string of inanities, a string of good wishes that he wishes to do. He seems to have forgotten all the fundamentals of his party. There is only one thing in which he is sincere and that is to have a total ban on cow slaughter. I have said that in the North-East - I come from that section as you come - beef is the cheapest source of protein for the majority of the people.

If you stop people ...(Interruptions)... They are ashamed of us and we are ashamed of them. ...(Interruptions)... They can never impose their hegemony on the North-East. The Mughal emperors tried to do that by sending the army to Assam and each time they had been turned away from the banks of Brahmaputra. They cannot impose their way of life on the people of North-East.

Sir, I think this is a wrong policy economically also. We make an economic study of the cattle in this country. I make a submission that 80 per cent of the cattle population in this country is uneconomic. Very few cattle in this country give proper type or quantity of milk. Many of them just go on champing out blades of grass and leaves leaving the country barren, and are turning the country into a desert. Some of them are being used as draught animals but a time comes when they are no longer used as draught animals. What do you do with all these cattle? Are you going to watch them? You are going to allow them to champ up all vegetation in the country. What are you going to do with it? This is uneconomic.

I think, it is something right and good that this Government is going out of power in a few minutes. If they follow the kind of an economic policy which has got to be in sync with the economic developments in the world, they cannot suggest all these things. You have got to reform and one of the things you reform is to reform the way which you approach your cattle. Treat your cattle well, get the benefit out of them. What are they going to do with all these stray cattle? Either you eat them or you kill them, do something. England today is facing what they call `the mad cow disease' of the beef. The destruction of these cattle and even the cost of destruction has become a big problem in that country. What are they going to do with it here? They have to think about it.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, if this is the way in which the BJP conducts its affairs, I can tell you that the whole of the North-East from Bhutan right up to Naga will be forbidding them psychologically. Nobody will listen to them. They have been able to make some progress in that area mostly by overindulgence. But this time even that little progress will be swept out. Nobody is going to listen to them. They have nothing to do in West Bengal. They have nothing to do in Andhra Pradesh and nowhere else in the South. The whole country is being divided between the cowbelt and the non-cowbelt. But even in the cowbelt areas the Muslims, the low-caste and the other people will rise against you. Therefore, if you think that you are going to benefit when you go out of office, if you think that you will benefit out of sympathy wave, it is going to be the other way. I tell you, I predict that when the elections are held you are going to do very poorly. You are not going to get even the number that you have today.